No moving and shooting on same turn?

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Smertin
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Smertin »

ORIGINAL: JMass
ORIGINAL: Smertin
I have had the same problem...nearly stopped my playing of the game because i was so frustrated. My tanks would not fire back even in clear terrain while facing a armoured recon car firing at them and eventually knocking them out. I was using the engage command if that helps.

No need to be frustrated, Engage-move is dangerous when you are near to contact the enemy, better to set Advance, it is slower but safer. Here you are fighting the enemy, not the clock, if you need to move quickly but safer set the Path to Fastest or to Cover and the SOP to Cautious.

I have tried Advance and yes that is better thanks...just not as flexible as Engage...but much happier with the results.
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Richie61
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Richie61 »

This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
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Zakhal
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Zakhal »

Well I tested it and it sure seems that the tanks are waiting for the next turn until they shoot.

I moved (engage-move) my t34 to within 30m of enemy unpinned infantry that it could see all the time. It moved and then stopped (engage-hold). It didnt shoot at the enemy. Instead it just waited. Then after a while the turn ended.

Then I clicked next turn and the tanks gun immedialty turned and it started shooting (attached picture).

Its obvious that the tank was waiting for next turn until shooting. Could this have somthing to do with russian order delay? If not then what delay is it?
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Mobius
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Mobius »

I tested this a long long time ago. In hill 226 is sent some tanks up the left side of the map to take a dugin Pak38 on the hill from behind. Just before it would be in sight a tried different orders to creep up over a rise on the PaK. Saving the game I tried Advance, rush, defend and engage. I had the best luck with Defend and Advance as the tanks fired more often and quicker than the other orders.
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Mad Russian
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Richie61

This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
The "Red Hoard" is kickin' my a lot [:D]

Two words of advice for you:

GO SLOW.

This is not CMBB. If you rush forward in PCO there will be dead infantry and smoke plumes rising to the sky.

PCO plays SLOWER.

Good Hunting.

MR
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junk2drive
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

And there is no turn limit in most scenarios to force you into rushing. And I still have no patience.
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Richie61
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Richie61 »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Richie61

This is a perfect example of learning to use PCO effectively. I didn't play the older games, so learning all the little (big if you want to not die) features is tough at times.
There is lots of commands to tweak what your forces do or don't do. It's a great option to have, but a pretty good sized learning curve for us first time user.
The "Red Hoard" is kickin' my a lot [:D]

Two words of advice for you:

GO SLOW.

This is not CMBB. If you rush forward in PCO there will be dead infantry and smoke plumes rising to the sky.

PCO plays SLOWER.

Good Hunting.

MR

Oh, I am learning that one fast. I am so used to having time limits and such in war games, but this is more like
real fighting. I send a lot of time setting up my forces and slowly probing the enemy looking for them or a soft
spot in their lines.

I have learned really quick that the AI does a great job of exploiting my weaknesses. If I over extend my forces while pushing an attack, they reach out and touch me in a bad way [:D]

Thanks again for all the tips [&o] I need them!

RE61
To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

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sandman2575
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by sandman2575 »

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Well I tested it and it sure seems that the tanks are waiting for the next turn until they shoot.

I moved (engage-move) my t34 to within 30m of enemy unpinned infantry that it could see all the time. It moved and then stopped (engage-hold). It didnt shoot at the enemy. Instead it just waited. Then after a while the turn ended.

Then I clicked next turn and the tanks gun immedialty turned and it started shooting (attached picture).

Its obvious that the tank was waiting for next turn until shooting. Could this have somthing to do with russian order delay? If not then what delay is it?

sorry to resurrect an old post -- i'm getting back into Panzer Command and going through the threads to pick up tips.

After reading this thread, I no longer see what the benefit of Engage>Move is. If it does not allow for auto-fire, as Zakhal's experience shows, then it just seems a plain "Move" order with no "engage" to speak of. If that is the case, why would you ever use Engage>Move? It sounds like Engage>Move is really only useful to get from point A to point B. In that case, why not just use "Rush", which also has no 'engage' auto-fire? Or, if you know enemies are in the vicinity -- and really, isn't this 95% of the time? -- shouldn't you always use "Advance"?

I've been playing on the 60-second 'no reaction' turns (and thanks Mad Russian for pushing for this option!). Perhaps Engage>Move is giving different results in 40:40 turn vs. straight 60 turn?
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

I do hope that you try the 40:40 a few times after you become comfy with the game.

With the current beta, units with Engage>Move will not fire on the move and if they reach the end of movement before the end of the phase, they don't seem to do anything.

I have been using Engage>Move only to travel distances in areas that I think are trouble free. I use advance most of the time. However, advance does not allow you to change a sub unit to target something. Usually the sub unit does a good job of auto targeting after I press play. Engage>Hold for the CO will allow the subs to be ordered to move or target.

Rush and charge will tire out a squad and it takes a while to recover. They also seem to rout easier. It can be useful for bringing up reserve platoons into hot spots.
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Mad Russian
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Mad Russian »

For anyone having targeting issues the 40:40 turn is the best option. It allows you to be able to stop a unit, withdraw with a unit or target a unit in the middle of a full 80 second turn sequence. That's better than what I was getting with the 60 second turns and why I went back to them after being the one that requested a 60 second turn.

Good Hunting.

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sandman2575
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by sandman2575 »

Sounds like I will have to change to 40:40 then.  Was the problem with Engage>Move not targeting introduced in the latest beta?  Or was it always there?

It would be good to have some clarification on what "ideally" the difference between "Engage>Move" and "Advance" is -- the manual is a bit ambiguous on the subject.  I understand that "E>M" is normal-speed and "Advance" is half-speed.  I have also seen that with "Advance," your tanks will fire at targets while still on the move.

Is the 'ideal' that "Advance" is half-speed move, with auto-targeted fire 'on the move,' and "Engage>Move" is normal-speed move, but once your unit contacts and enemy, it will *stop* and engage from stationary position - ??
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

...
Is the 'ideal' that "Advance" is half-speed move, with auto-targeted fire 'on the move,' and "Engage>Move" is normal-speed move, but once your unit contacts and enemy, it will *stop* and engage from stationary position - ??

That is correct for Advance, but for Engage-->Move, the unit will not stop and auto-target when using Engage --> move. If it reaches it's destination, it will be able to fire in the next 'phase'. It won't fire in a phase that it moves in. The primary reason for Engage move is that it allows platoons to have some units on "overwatch", able to target and fire while other units in the platoon can move forward. the player can also designate specific target for some units in a platoon while still moving other forward.

Thanks
Rick

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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

I believe that Rick is referring to Bound orders for the Germans. I'm not sure that you can have the CO Engage>Move and have a sub unit sit and overwatch, then auto fire if need be.

Sorry that I didn't explain more about my use of Advance, but yes, the advantage is that they move at half speed, more cautiously, and will auto fire.

I also use Defend>Move a lot when things get to close quarters. Since the platoon should attain Defend>Not Moving at the next turn (phase?) of inactivity, you can give single squads Defend>Move to adjust position or move closer to a suppressed enemy, while having others in overwatch.
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

Another new feature that you can try out is the SOP button. Good for having scout units be cautious and tough tanks be aggressive.
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I believe that Rick is referring to Bound orders for the Germans. I'm not sure that you can have the CO Engage>Move and have a sub unit sit and overwatch, then auto fire if need be.
...

if you give one of your tanks an Engage --> Move, and another in the same platoon and Engage --> Hold the 2nd tank will conduct what i call 'overwatch' where it stays in position, and watches for any enemy targets and will auto target and fire.

Thanks
rick
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

Good to know. Thanks. Wonder if the Soviet delay makes the Hold unit sit and wait?
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by sandman2575 »

Thanks for the clarifications -- this is indeed helpful info.  So, as I understand it, Engage>Move is WAD in the latest beta (and has always been WAD).  Engage>Move will *not* auto-target enemies.

Just to be 100% clear:  the *only* order in which a unit can *both* Move and Auto-target *in the same phase* is "Advance."

Going back to the Ostrfont manual -- the descriptions for the "Engage" sub-orders are quite misleading:

Pg.43
Engage
"The platoon will target any enemy unit and/or move freely; they will have firing opportunities during each phase."  --- This strongly implies that the platoon will *auto-target* ("will target any enemy unit *and*/or move freely") -- but in actuality, there is *no* Engage suborder that allows a selected unit to both "target any enemy unit and move freely" in the same phase (or "each phase" for that matter).  The only way a unit can have "firing opportunities during each phase" is by using Engage>Target, in which case you have to manually select the target, or Engage>Hold.

a little further on pg. 43:
Engage > Move
"A Move during an Engage order proceeds at a normal speed over both phases if the unit does not fire."  If the unit does not fire??  The unit *will not* fire unless given an explicit Engage>Target order during the "Reaction" correction phase.  This at least is how I am reading Rick and Junk's response, as well as the other posts in this thread.


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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

Thanks for the clarifications -- this is indeed helpful info.  So, as I understand it, Engage>Move is WAD in the latest beta (and has always been WAD).  Engage>Move will *not* auto-target enemies.

Just to be 100% clear:  the *only* order in which a unit can *both* Move and Auto-target *in the same phase* is "Advance."

Going back to the Ostrfont manual -- the descriptions for the "Engage" sub-orders are quite misleading:

Pg.43
Engage
"The platoon will target any enemy unit and/or move freely; they will have firing opportunities during each phase."  --- This strongly implies that the platoon will *auto-target* ("will target any enemy unit *and*/or move freely") -- but in actuality, there is *no* Engage suborder that allows a selected unit to both "target any enemy unit and move freely" in the same phase (or "each phase" for that matter).  The only way a unit can have "firing opportunities during each phase" is by using Engage>Target, in which case you have to manually select the target, or Engage>Hold.

a little further on pg. 43:
Engage > Move
"A Move during an Engage order proceeds at a normal speed over both phases if the unit does not fire."  If the unit does not fire??  The unit *will not* fire unless given an explicit Engage>Target order during the "Reaction" correction phase.  This at least is how I am reading Rick and Junk's response, as well as the other posts in this thread.

yes, this is my understanding. as far as WAD, I believe that it is, though I wasn't involved with PC at that point.

as far as the manul, on page 43, I think it would have been clearer if we had included the phrase .....will have firing opportunities during each phase that the unit does not move.

Thanks
Rick
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by junk2drive »

I think originally a unit would auto target at just about any stance except hold fire. As time marched on, things changed, sometimes the manual did not.

I believe a unit will auto target on Defend orders as well as Advance. It will fire or auto target on manual or auto withdraw and maybe retreat.

Probably at some point a discussion was had about tanks firing on the move and the game was changed to stop tanks from firing while Engage>Moving but that effected every unit.
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RE: No moving and shooting on same turn?

Post by Mobius »

I seem to remember it worked a little differently in PCK. Where after a unit stopped moving it would change its stance to Defend (unless in Engage) and target an enemy.

Things may have changed when the ability to select turn length was added. I used to select Engage instead of Rush because of this. But now I can use Rush and just Halt the units at the Reaction phase. Since these seem almost the same I might use Rush more because the units move faster.
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