Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

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Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

While narating AMC's Memorial Day weekend line-up of war flics, Tom Brokaw said the Japanese thought that a "devastating attack" on Pearl Harbor would demoralize America and keep her out of the war!

Am I hearing him right? Attacking PH would keep the US out of the war? Even Yamamotto realized the attack would only buy his empire time by delaying USN interference with the IJN's immediate plans in the PTO.

Brokaw -- a former NBC News anchor -- also claimed Midway, not Guadalcanal, was the turning point for the war in the Pacific; sure, Midway made the 'Canal counteroffensive possible, but most historians agree the tide turned at GC.

Or have I been on these forums tooo long?
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by junk2drive »

A lot of people consider Midway to be the turning point. I suppose that the loss to the IJN had an effect on the logistics of the IJA.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by ilovestrategy »

I always thought the turn was gradual, not one event.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by martok »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

While narating AMC's Memorial Day weekend line-up of war flics, Tom Brokaw said the Japanese thought that a "devastating attack" on Pearl Harbor would demoralize America and keep her out of the war!

Am I hearing him right? Attacking PH would keep the US out of the war? Even Yamamotto realized the attack would only buy his empire time by delaying USN interference with the IJN's immediate plans in the PTO.

As it happens, I'm currently reading At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor by Gordon W. Prange, which covers (among other things) that very subject. The book, in short, has this to say:

Yes, the Japanese government -- or at least the war-hawks who controlled it -- genuinely believed that a knockdown blow to the U.S. Pacific Fleet would demoralize us to the point that we'd seek peace with them instead. They felt the U.S. was a "hollow giant" (if I'm remembering the term from the book correctly) that would not want to risk war with Japan, especially as at the time, we were more concerned about Hitler, Europe, and the subsequent situation in the Atlantic.

There were a fair number of military officers (including Yamamoto, as you pointed out) who knew better, but they couldn't dissuade the war-hawks from their wishful thinking.




ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Brokaw -- a former NBC News anchor -- also claimed Midway, not Guadalcanal, was the turning point for the war in the Pacific; sure, Midway made the 'Canal counteroffensive possible, but most historians agree the tide turned at GC.

Or have I been on these forums tooo long?

I myself have long had the impression that Midway was the turning point in the Pacific War. At the very least, I'd say it was the *first* key turning point, as the Imperial Navy could no longer afford to conduct major offensive operations after that.

Guadalcanal certainly gave us the initial momentum in our offensive operations against the Japanese, no doubt about it. However, as you (again) pointed out, it was Midway that let us take the momentum away from the Japanese in the first place.



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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by KG Erwin »

Yes, it was Midway that essentially blunted any further Japanese offensive efforts in the Pacific -- the loss of those 4 carriers was a loss the Japanese could not replace. From then on, the Japanese reverted to keeping what they had conquered, but without those 4 carriers, they couldn't expect to even defend their over-extended perimeter. The Guadalcanal campaign only succeeded in decimating their surviving veteran carrier pilots, so for all intents and purposes the Japanese navy was ended as an offensive force.

Taken in tandem, the battles of Midway and the Guadalcanal campaign meant that Japan was offensively spent, and from then on reverted to the defensive.

Even at that, it took three years for us to wear them down, and it was arguably necessary to employ nuclear weapons to convince the Empire of Japan to surrender.

However, the turning points were BOTH the battles of Midway and the Guadalcanal air/sea/land battles of 1942. Combine this with the heroic defense of the approaches to Port Moresby by the Australians in Papua, and the Japanese were played out.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Yes, it was Midway that essentially blunted any further Japanese offensive efforts in the Pacific ...

Yet despite the loss of four IJN CVs at Midway, Japan still tried to hold the 'Canal with their remaining CVs and the nightly Tokyo Express: to quote Wellington, Guadalcanal was still "a near run thing" despite the loss of the Kido Butai.

If it wasn't for VADM Halsey -- who replaced a very reluctant US admiral -- and a stubborn Marine defense, Imperial Japan would have (temporarilly) blunted the US counteroffensive in the Solomons.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by KG Erwin »

Joe D., you're engaging in a bit of nitpicking, as I argue that the combination of events in 1942 doomed Japan. However, if you insist upon a single turning point, it was the failure of the Japanese to retake Guadalcanal. Let me pinpoint it a bit further -- it was the failure of the late October 1942 offensive to recapture Henderson Field, in the fights that won John Basilone his MOH.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: martok

Yes, the Japanese government -- or at least the war-hawks who controlled it -- genuinely believed that a knockdown blow to the U.S. Pacific Fleet would demoralize us to the point that we'd seek peace with them instead. They felt the U.S. was a "hollow giant" (if I'm remembering the term from the book correctly) that would not want to risk war with Japan, especially as at the time, we were more concerned about Hitler, Europe, and the subsequent situation in the Atlantic ...

If they truly believed that, why didn't Japan just invade the Euro colonial possesions in the Pacific without attacking PH and risking what they wanted to avoid in the first place?

Sinking a single U.S. gunboat in China is one thing, but attacking the U.S. fleet at port while expecting no retaliation in return was surreal, if not an extreme case of "group think".
ORIGINAL: martok
Guadalcanal certainly gave us the initial momentum in our offensive operations against the Japanese, no doubt about it. However, as you (again) pointed out, it was Midway that let us take the momentum away from the Japanese in the first place.

Not the momentum; in fact, according to Shattered Sword, "The losses at Midway did not radically degrade the fighting capability of Japanese naval aviation as a whole ... it woud take the hellish attrition of the Solomons campaign to initiate a fatal downward spiral in Japanese carrier aircrew proficency ..."

Sword goes on to state that "... the true locus of that battle's (Midway) downstream effects rightly lies in the waters off Guadalcanal.

Maybe AMC should have given Brokaw a copy of Sword for Memorial Day?
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by KG Erwin »

Joe D., if you choose to take the conclusions of the author of "Shattered Sword" as gospel, then so be it. You've made up your mind, and you'll stick with it. That's fine.

You're obviously a Navy fan, and I'm a Marine fan. Our opinions are different. No problem.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Joe D., you're engaging in a bit of nitpicking, as I argue that the combination of events in 1942 doomed Japan. However, if you insist upon a single turning point, it was the failure of the Japanese to retake Guadalcanal ...

Yes, and not Midway, apparently because AMC already had footage from the film of the same name for Brokaw to do a "voice over," but I expected more from a news anchor who also penned, "The Greatest Generation".

However, I can't help but wonder that if AMC was going to show "Guadalcanal Diary" this weekend, would Brokaw have said that the 'Canal was the turning point instead?
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by KG Erwin »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Joe D., you're engaging in a bit of nitpicking, as I argue that the combination of events in 1942 doomed Japan. However, if you insist upon a single turning point, it was the failure of the Japanese to retake Guadalcanal ...

Yes, and not Midway, apparently because AMC already had footage from the film of the same name for Brokaw to do a "voice over," but I expected more from a news anchor who also penned, "The Greatest Generation".

However, I can't help but wonder that if AMC was going to show "Guadalcanal Diary" this weekend, would Brokaw have said that the 'Canal was the turning point instead?

Ok, so we basically agree, but why belabor the point?
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Joe D., if you choose to take the conclusions of the author of "Shattered Sword" as gospel, then so be it. You've made up your mind, and you'll stick with it. That's fine.

You're obviously a Navy fan, and I'm a Marine fan. Our opinions are different. No problem.

But doesn't the Marine Corps still fall under the Dept. of the Navy?

And for the record, I'm former U.S. Army, although my brigade was "op-con'ed" to 2 MAR DIV for Desert Storm.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by martok »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
ORIGINAL: martok

Yes, the Japanese government -- or at least the war-hawks who controlled it -- genuinely believed that a knockdown blow to the U.S. Pacific Fleet would demoralize us to the point that we'd seek peace with them instead. They felt the U.S. was a "hollow giant" (if I'm remembering the term from the book correctly) that would not want to risk war with Japan, especially as at the time, we were more concerned about Hitler, Europe, and the subsequent situation in the Atlantic ...

If they truly believed that, why didn't Japan just invade the Euro colonial possesions in the Pacific without attacking PH and risking what they wanted to avoid in the first place?

Because the Japanese also believed that once they began their "Southern operation" (the invasion of Indo-China, Philippines, and the rest), that the U.S. Pacific Fleet would quickly move to intervene. Not surprisingly, this is something they wanted to prevent -- or at least delay -- for as long as possible, and Yamamoto was able to (barely) convince the higher-ups that an attack on our Fleet at Pearl Harbor was the best way to accomplish this.

Not that he wanted to fight America, of course -- quite the opposite (as most folks on this forum probably already know). But if Japan was determined to go to war with us, then he was determined give his country the best possible odds of winning....however slim they were in the long run. And so the Pearl Harbor operation was conceived.



ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Sinking a single U.S. gunboat in China is one thing, but attacking the U.S. fleet at port while expecting no retaliation in return was surreal, if not an extreme case of "group think".

Indeed. The more hawkish members of the government and Navy & Army commands do appear to have suffered from a collective bout of wishful thinking.

It's interesting to note that the majority of Japanese military officers who had actually been to the U.S. and were at least somewhat familiar with the American naval community -- including Yamamoto and Admiral Nomura (Japan's ambassador to the U.S.) -- did not seem to suffer from this delusion. I still wonder how events would have played out had they been able to make their superiors in Tokyo see reason (or at least reality).



ORIGINAL: Joe D.
ORIGINAL: martok
Guadalcanal certainly gave us the initial momentum in our offensive operations against the Japanese, no doubt about it. However, as you (again) pointed out, it was Midway that let us take the momentum away from the Japanese in the first place.

Not the momentum; in fact, according to Shattered Sword, "The losses at Midway did not radically degrade the fighting capability of Japanese naval aviation as a whole ... it woud take the hellish attrition of the Solomons campaign to initiate a fatal downward spiral in Japanese carrier aircrew proficency ..."

That statement might be accurate as far as it goes. (Frankly, I still find it a little hard to believe, but Parshall & Tully obviously know a lot more about the Pacific campaign than I do, so I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.) However, even if that is true, it's still hardly the whole story.

Losing four carriers at Midway was a critical (and probably fatal) blow to the Imperial Navy in the long run, such that they were relegated to fighting almost entirely on the defensive after that. (And when that happens, it generally means you've lost the war, even if the inevitable defeat doesn't occur right away.) However good Japanese naval aviators were -- and there's no question they were damn good -- in the long run, it's not of much use if you're using your warplanes to primarily defend objectives, rather than attacking them.



Don't get me wrong: I am absolutely not trying to downplay Guadalcanal, and the role it played in the Pacific war. There's no denying that our success there was hugely important in our overall strategy to defeat Japan, and I'm especially grateful to our troops who fought -- and died -- there.

But without the victory at Midway -- or some other battle where we managed to take out a good chunk of Japan's carrier fleet -- I don't think the Guadalcanal operation (or one like it) would have been a practical option in the first place. So long as Japan retained a powerful mobile naval aviation strike force (such as they had prior to Midway), I have a hard time believing we would have made much headway against their forces defending their Pacific perimeter.


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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: martok
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
If they truly believed that, why didn't Japan just invade the Euro colonial possesions in the Pacific without attacking PH and risking what they wanted to avoid in the first place?


Because the Japanese also believed that once they began their "Southern operation" (the invasion of Indo-China, Philippines, and the rest), that the U.S. Pacific Fleet would quickly move to intervene ....


It's been discussed on these forums before as to whether a neutral US would be willing to defend Euro colonial possesions in the PTO.
ORIGINAL: martok
Losing four carriers at Midway was a critical (and probably fatal) blow to the Imperial Navy in the long run, such that they were relegated to fighting almost entirely on the defensive after that ...

After Midway, the remaining IJN CVs cost the USN another CV defending the 'Canal.
ORIGINAL: martok
But without the victory at Midway -- or some other battle where we managed to take out a good chunk of Japan's carrier fleet -- I don't think the Guadalcanal operation (or one like it) would have been a practical option in the first place. ....

Midway simply made the Solomons counteroffensive feasible, but as one IJN officer remarked, at the break-neck pace the IJN was going, it would eventually have a "Midway" somewhere else in the Pacific.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by martok »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

It's been discussed on these forums before as to whether a neutral US would be willing to defend Euro colonial possesions in the PTO.

True, but it's also largely irrelevant to what we're discussing.

What *is* relevant is that Japan -- correctly or incorrectly -- believed we would likely use our Pacific Fleet to (at least try to) intervene with their operations in southeast Asia and the East Indies.

Whether or not we actually would have done so is indeed a different discussion for another time.



ORIGINAL: Joe D.

After Midway, the remaining IJN CVs cost the USN another CV defending the 'Canal.

....And?

I didn't say the IJN ceased offensive operations completely in the Western/Central Pacific, just mostly. Of course they fought back when & where they could, but the Japanese still conducted very few major offensive operations overall (after Midway).



ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Midway simply made the Solomons counteroffensive feasible, but as one IJN officer remarked, at the break-neck pace the IJN was going, it would eventually have a "Midway" somewhere else in the Pacific.

Exactly. So again, Midway -- or a battle similar to it -- is what (would have) allowed us to go on the offensive and grab the momentum from the Empire of Japan, thus making Guadalcanal possible.


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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: martok
I didn't say the IJN ceased offensive operations completely in the Western/Central Pacific, just mostly ...

In other words, the IJN was still capable of offensive actions even after Midway.

ORIGINAL: martok
Exactly. So again, Midway -- or a battle similar to it -- is what (would have) allowed us to go on the offensive and grab the momentum from the Empire of Japan, thus making Guadalcanal possible.

But that offensive didn't happen at Midway; the tide turned on and around the 'Canal.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by carnifex »

This is what "turning point" look like --> defeat, defeat, tie, defeat, defeat, GIANT VICTORY, victory, tie, victory, victory, victory, tie, victory.

Clearly Midway was the turning point.

These ultra-pedantic discussions are a prime example of why wargamers don't get laid.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

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ORIGINAL: carnifex


These ultra-pedantic discussions are a prime example of why wargamers don't get laid.
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: carnifex

This is what "turning point" look like --> defeat, defeat, tie, defeat, defeat, GIANT VICTORY, victory, tie, victory, victory, victory, tie, victory.

Clearly Midway was the turning point ...

"Guadalcanal was the first battle in the American amphibious campaign to liberate the Pacific from Japanese occupation. Although the naval battles of Midway and Coral Sea have been described as the turning points, in the Pacific War, Guadalcanal was where the Japanese war machine was finally halt ..."

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/ba ... canal.html

... and these other sites came from a brief "google" search of Guadalcanal, tide, turn:

Brief History of WWII: Turning Points in the Pacific
The Tide Turns. Jump to: A Brief History of U.S. Army in World War II ... Of all the places where GIs fought in the Second World War, Guadalcanal and the ...
http://www.worldwariihistory.info/WWII/ ... point.html

The Battle of Guadalcanal : Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands ...
Guadalcanal is well-known for its pivotal role in World War II, with the battle of Guadalcanal turning the tide in favor of the Allies in the Pacific ...
http://www.guadalcanal.com/battleofguadalcanal.html

The First Battle of Guadalcanal the 13th. - Ahoy - Mac's Web Log
Naval Battles in the Solomon Islands over August/November 1942 turn the tide of the Pacific War. The First Battle of Guadalcanal the 13th. of November, 1942 ...
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Solomons/BattleofGuadalcanal.html

The Second Battle of Guadalcanal. 14/15th. - Ahoy - Mac's Web Log
Naval Battles in the Solomon Islands over August/November 1942 turn the tide ...
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Solomons/2ndBattl ... canal.html

Guadalcanal
If you would like a brief introduction to the greater context of Guadalcanal, check out "The Tide Turns" in our Brief History of WWII e-text. ...
http://www.worldwar2history.info/Guadalcanal/

Landing on Guadalcanal, 1942 - Battles That Turned the Tide ...
U.S. Marines come ashore from a landing craft at the Battle of Guadalcanal in August 1942. The Allies' first major offensive against the Japanese Empire, ...
http://www.life.com/gallery/26862/image/3333808

Go For Broke National Education Center >> History >> Historical ...
move in the Pacific. But the tide turned after the Guadalcanal campaign. After six months of battle in Guadalcanal's dense jungles, the U.S. ...
http://www.goforbroke.org/history/docs/ ... lcanal.pdf
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RE: Brokaw, AMC and Memorial Day weekend

Post by carnifex »

Yeah, I get a LOT more links when I search for Midway turning point so I win.



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