Welle 16 to 35

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samba_liten
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by samba_liten »

It's Mediafire. The link takes you to my page there. The first file was deleted, as the second is the same, but with more information added.
Here is a link straght to the download page. If that doesn't work, e-mail me at samba _ liten (at) yahoo (dot) se and I'll send you the latest version.

Once I'm done with a more substantial part of the project, I'll be more than happy to take you up on your offer, but for now i don't think its worth while. There isn't much done yet.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Nice ! I've added them in !

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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by samba_liten »

The numbers on the counters look a bit different from your average scenario. What welle is that 9-22 division? Those numbers look odd enough to make me wonder if i made a mistake somewhere!
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Well, the numbers are scaled, but due to the nature of this 'scenario' they may look a bit odd. So far, I don't think they look out of whack. When I see German infantry divisions that have numbers like 18-12, that seems out of whack. If you were to put together a German panzer division, I would think it would have something like 25-18 in this application.

The 9-22 unit is the 13th Welle.

The units in the far left column are the Welle's from 1 on, top to bottom. To their right, diagonally, are the component units for those that you have done already (some hidden behind the Force Editor box.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by samba_liten »

13th Welle is next in line for an update. Will be interesting to see if it turns out the same.

I've been busy working, keeping up with my PBEM and capturing Leningrad in D21 for the first time, hence the delay. But, here is the link for the file containing what work I've done lately.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Nice ! I've added them in !

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Kamerad polarenper, what about the Heavy Rifle Squads? Your TO&E is bloody marvelous but...I know there's a discussion going on if one should use HRS for pre-1943 units; so what's your view? In practice the only HMG *calibre wise* was the .50 cal. of the USA etc.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Maybe this will draw in a bunch of angry opinions, but I think we are trying to be generic, and then designers can modify their toe's as they want.

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = hmg's

With the two alternate .eqp files, things can be more refined.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by samba_liten »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Maybe this will draw in a bunch of angry opinions, but I think we are trying to be generic, and then designers can modify their toe's as they want.

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = hmg's

With the two alternate .eqp files, things can be more refined.

That sums it up in a nutshell.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Maybe this will draw in a bunch of angry opinions, but I think we are trying to be generic, and then designers can modify their toe's as they want.

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = hmg's

With the two alternate .eqp files, things can be more refined.

Actually, either the manual or hadith (the oral tradition of Norm's remarks) says that heavy rifle is intended to represent squads with more automatic weapons than just an LMG - like two LMG's, or the squad leader has a machine pistol as well. Nothing about them lugging around a .50 calibre machine gun. What squad does that?

Of course, I myself tend to wind up with all sorts of other considerations influencing the decision -- but the above would be the practice among the pious.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by ColinWright »

...
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by Telumar »

The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.

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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Telumar

The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.


I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule. BAR could also have a bipod. Would that make it a LMG? Soviet's would put two LMG in a squad. Would it be a heavy squad because of the two LMG? Also, the Soviet LMG was drum fed not belt fed. It gets very confusing if you are trying to pin down water with a thumb tack. [;)]

BTW, heavy MG is also a very squishy term.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by ColinWright »

Then there are all the 'soft' factors.

Like, I read a very convincing argument a few years back that unlike most armies, the Germans tended to treat the rifle squad as a support system for the MG34/42 -- with happy results for its effectiveness.  If everyone's lugging ammunition for the machine gun, then it has twice as much ammo, and can fire twice as much.

So I make ordinary German rifle squads heavy rifle.  Not because the MG34 was so much better than the Bren -- because it was used better.  For those two MG panzergrenadier sections, I use a 'Schutzen' squad I've dreamed up (5 AP, if I recall aright).

Conversely, the troops in question may have been too inept to do more than hold their ground -- or saddled with some unreliable weapon like old Lewis guns.  Or chronically short of ammunition, or whatever.  So even if an MG is technically present, I may make the squad light rifle.

At the other extreme, while I've never worked with the Japanese, I have the impression they were fanatically aggressive but prone to take extravagantly high casualties. So whatever the 'hard' TO&E, I might look at using 'Assault recon teams' or something for their squads. If I recall aright, much lower defensive value -- and hence losses should soar. If that's not the case, I might make it the case...

How many Nambus they actually had per platoon is a consideration, but not the only one.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by ColinWright »

My point is that looking at the physical equipment a force holds can't be rigidly respected.  After all, one does want to wind up with a unit that performs about as its historical counterpart did.

I've been working a lot with the various forces involved in the various goings on in the Middle East in World War Two -- and generally, with a bit of fudging, I can get about the right level and type of performance.  Like 'light rifles' for the Italians -- whatever they may have actually had.

In some cases, though, the TO&E has to go right out the window.  Like, the Iranian army of 1941 actually had somewhat more modern weapons than the rather second-line British forces that attacked it.  New Skoda 105's versus 18 pdrs, etc.

However, that doesn't matter.  To actually get a force that behaves about like the Iranian Army of 1941 did, I have to ignore the TO&E entirely and just make up their units out of a mixture of 'irregular' and 'civilian' squads.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Good points Colin. We've thought about this and are including footnotes with submissions, so we will have toe's 'based on historical references' and maybe we should also include those, for example, 'modified for Sealion' (or whatever scenario) so that designers can have a reference point. Really, all submissions can be included, but should have some reference attached. That said, I personally would like to avoid those toe's that were 'created' because of a lack of historical data at the time of creation (if such examples exist), if only because we might not want to include anything that could be misleading (and have it taken as based on something official).
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Based on the very good points mentioned in a few recent posts, maybe the baseline should be modified to:

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = mmg's, or squads with additional miscellaneous firepower.

HMG's are included in all three databases so could be added individually.

I don't think the above modification would force Fred to redo his welle information as the Germans did use their mg's in a 'heavy' capacity, as Colin also explained. But that is up to Fred. He's the one with all the welles in his head. [:D]
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule.

We're not, and we're not suggesting we are. Our intention is to provide templates for future use, as opposed to the alternative of starting from scratch. Sometimes finding 'scratch' is chore enough.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Based on the very good points mentioned in a few recent posts, maybe the baseline should be modified to:

Light Rifle Squad = no mg's
Rifle Squad = lmg's
Heavy Rifle Squad = mmg's, or squads with additional miscellaneous firepower.

HMG's are included in all three databases so could be added individually.

I don't think the above modification would force Fred to redo his welle information as the Germans did use their mg's in a 'heavy' capacity, as Colin also explained. But that is up to Fred. He's the one with all the welles in his head. [:D]

You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario, don't you? You may want to add certain designer comments like i.e. Colin's in the previous posts in addition to those comments that 'explain' a specific unit's/formation's TOE/OOB itself.
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RE: Welle 16 to 35

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: Panama
ORIGINAL: Telumar

The equipment doc says MMG for Heavy Rifle Squads and defines a MMG as a "Bipod mounted, somewhat portable belt fed weapon" while it defines a LMG as "BAR or other easily portable clip fed automatic weapon".

As i understand it this would mean that the German WWII squad MG would qualify as an MMG while the US Infantry squad's BAR would be an LMG per game definition.

Some designers also used Heavy Rifle Squads as Squads with two MGs like the German PzGren squads. Then late '44 also could see the US squads represented as Heavy Rifle Squads as more BARs and M1919s were handed out to company HQs and made their way into the rifle platoons.


I wouldn't hold any of this to a hard and fast rule.

I haven't said that..

..but yes. Given the generic character of the database and Norm's spartanic comment in the .doc certainly not.
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