Winter too weak now?

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Scarz
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Scarz »

I think you nailed the main issues right on the nose Q-Ball.

1. Germans are too powerful in Summer '41

The Germans are too powerful and the Soviets are too weak. The Soviets are not able to launch even the most limited counter attacks which is ahistorical. Also the supply system needs to be reworked, as the Germans can do just too much in 41, and they can do it everywhere.

2. 1942 isn't fluid enough; too many trenches. A "Case Blue"-type breakout is just about impossible for the Germans

As my game with IdahoNY is proving, 42 has become vintage trench warfare. Again, the Germans will need to feel the effects of blizzard with reduced manpower (more importantly, the supply for the Germans should not allow another broad front advance like in 41), and the Soviets need to be a bit better, then the entrenchments can be made much harder to achieve. That would give us a more fluid 42.

3. In 43/44, Soviets have too easy a time smashing german formations, until the Wehrmacht collapses

Can't speak to this, as I have not been that far in a game.

4. Air

The one you missed is the air portion of the game. It seems broken. I could list lots of examples here, but it just doesnt seem right. Most obvious, the Soviets in our game are mid-42 right now, they have decent fighters, with average crews, and they get results of 60+ fighters shot down by the Germans for no losses by the Germans in a 30 on 150 fight. There are other examples like interdiction, Soviets commonly lose 1500 men in an interdiction attack. And then there are air base attacks issues....etc etc
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heliodorus04
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by heliodorus04 »

I am interested in playing an Axis player who wants to see how the game plays when the Soviet (me) has a -10 hit to fortification.  I can't start for a couple of days.  but the plan would be to play as long a game as we could using this setup.  I've got some experience in 1.03 doing this as the Soviet. Message me if interested.
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Scarz »

Hey Heliodorus:
I would think that you would be at a severe disadvantage. I have only played one game as Axis against human and it ended early, but from the Soviet side, the entrenchments is all you have in 41, and to take a hit there seems like it can't end well.
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heliodorus04
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by heliodorus04 »

Oh, I'm not doing well in the 1.03 version, by any means, except casualty figures.  I have an AAR going on it over in the AAR section if you're interested (moves slow, and only on Turn 12).

I think if you manage the Soviet army itself properly and avoid useless casualties, you can lose Moscow and Leningrad and still make the historical May 1945 'night-night Der Fuehrer' end date.  And that's really what I'm trying to play out.  I think if the Soviet army in 1942 is restricted by the handicap from building Kursk-salient style rings of fortifications, then the German player has a higher degree of mobility advantage and then you can have a "fun" (don't ask me about historical) 1942 campaign that has some see-saw to it as Soviet corps come online.  And I would expect by 1943, the weight of soviet corps and production will see the German go completely to the defensive.  Once the German is completely on the defensive, the handicap doesn't matter all that much, but it still enables some German 'fire-brigade' style counter-attacks.  That's my theory, at least, which is why I'm looking for opponents.

I think the changes to date have a nice overall effect on the tradeoffs of 1941 EXCEPT Soviet omniscience leading to delightfully crisp and cohesive command and control (thus, fewer stupid casualties than historic).  Combine that competence with the relatively large effect of even level 2 forts, and I see the cause of the 1942 sitz-krieg that some people are now experiencing.  I personally would rather have a game that sees the whole German army more mobile in 1942 than it was historically.  But that's part of what I consider a fun game to play, and I know I differ from some folks in the degree of historical plausibility I need.  I'm a heretic that wishes I could rename XXXXVIII Panzer Corps to '48 Panzer'...

I think that the player community now needs to start seeing how current situations ripple in campaigns that run from at least June 41 to September 43. 
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Sabre21
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Since no two people are alike you will never find a balance that would be considered good. Maybe close is the best you could get. However, if some elements could be made adjustable those playing the game could put settings where they like and find their own best balance.

You can do that already on the game options page. You can adjust values to handicap one side or another or both sides.
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Panama
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

PANAMA: It is a game, so not looking for historical outcomes. I am looking for historical possibilities. Right now, it is very possible for the Soviets to build the kind of fortified belts that didn't exist in 1942. That is an a-historical capability. That might be OK, but it's not as much fun as a more fluid environment.

Agreed. I've never been a big fan of WWI.
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Panama
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Panama

Since no two people are alike you will never find a balance that would be considered good. Maybe close is the best you could get. However, if some elements could be made adjustable those playing the game could put settings where they like and find their own best balance.

You can do that already on the game options page. You can adjust values to handicap one side or another or both sides.

Thank you for pointing that out. Because it seemed as though no one has bothered to look at the Game Options. I don't think I've seen them mentioned as a way to balance the game. Now if only they could be adjusted in the midst of a pbem scenario. [;)]
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WarHunter
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by WarHunter »

I like this quote.
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
PANAMA: It is a game, so not looking for historical outcomes. I am looking for historical possibilities. Right now, it is very possible for the Soviets to build the kind of fortified belts that didn't exist in 1942. That is an a-historical capability. That might be OK, but it's not as much fun as a more fluid environment.


To add a little more "historical possibilities".

I would like to see in some future update.
The ability to use Admin Points to cancel Historical Withdrawal dates. Make it an option. Those that want to play historical Reinforcement/Withdrawals, should not be forced to use this option.
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Wild
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Wild »




I would like to see in some future update.
The ability to use Admin Points to cancel Historical Withdrawal dates. Make it an option. Those that want to play historical Reinforcement/Withdrawals, should not be forced to use this option.

[/quote]

I think this might be a decent idea. It could add a little variety and fun to the Germans and those who like to play historically would not have to use it.
I don't know how Soviet players would feel about it though.

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Mynok
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Mynok »


Hmmm...an interesting thought, but APs don't seem to really represent 'political points' in the same sense as a Witp:AE. They seem to be more like general staff action points which wouldn't really apply to strategic decisions. In other words, they don't seem like 'Hitler points' or 'Stalin points'.
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by gids »

atm im playing A GC where during the blizzard of 1942 the german player is all out offensive,he already encircled like 9 to 10 divisions and corpses :p its like frigging summer 1941 all over,really fun lol,he did pull back alot of units over the border on germany and romania during 1941
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Skanvak
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Skanvak »

I just read the winter-clothing was prepared and order given by Hitler to distribute it in november 1941 but that the clothings reach Warsaw and stay their due to logistical problem (quote from Guderian in Panzer Leader). I wonder if this is modelized in the game? Of course clothing is not the only problem. When reading Guderian, it seems that everyone had prepared the clothing but they blundered in delivering them.

Any though (or I open a thread for that?).

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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: gids

atm im playing A GC where during the blizzard of 1942 the german player is all out offensive,he already encircled like 9 to 10 divisions and corpses :p its like frigging summer 1941 all over,really fun lol,he did pull back alot of units over the border on germany and romania during 1941

But that is the second winter, the winter of 1942-43 right? There are no blizzard effects then (though I personally think there should be a slight negative effect on German attacks).

That is one of the things some people have brought up, it is a bit strange that the Germans have no problems maintaining an offensive during the worst months of winter, but mud will stop everything.
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gids
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by gids »

idd and i have to say i did attack him heavily in the summer which costed me ,my lines were understrenghts in the winter and way to stretched ,but still i did have a feeling like WTF :p
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Joel Billings
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Joel Billings »

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: gids

atm im playing A GC where during the blizzard of 1942 the german player is all out offensive,he already encircled like 9 to 10 divisions and corpses :p its like frigging summer 1941 all over,really fun lol,he did pull back alot of units over the border on germany and romania during 1941

But that is the second winter, the winter of 1942-43 right? There are no blizzard effects then (though I personally think there should be a slight negative effect on German attacks).

That is one of the things some people have brought up, it is a bit strange that the Germans have no problems maintaining an offensive during the worst months of winter, but mud will stop everything.

Well there are prices to be paid for Blizzard in terms of higher MP costs and thus less supply off rail.
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Panama
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
But that is the second winter, the winter of 1942-43 right? There are no blizzard effects then (though I personally think there should be a slight negative effect on German attacks).

That is one of the things some people have brought up, it is a bit strange that the Germans have no problems maintaining an offensive during the worst months of winter, but mud will stop everything.

You only need to look at what Manstein did to the Soviets in February/March 43 to know that they were well able to fight in the cold by then. Also, the Soviets failed in their Mars offensive in the north because it was no longer 1941. Winter was the same for both sides now. As for mud, it stopped everything for everyone. From Leningrad to the Caucasus. Good thing too for the Soviets. Because it prevented the Germans from eliminating the Kursk salient in March 43.
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by color »

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

I just read the winter-clothing was prepared and order given by Hitler to distribute it in november 1941 but that the clothings reach Warsaw and stay their due to logistical problem (quote from Guderian in Panzer Leader). I wonder if this is modelized in the game? Of course clothing is not the only problem. When reading Guderian, it seems that everyone had prepared the clothing but they blundered in delivering them.

Any though (or I open a thread for that?).

Noone blundered per se, more like shit hits the fan ... I suspect the major culprit for this were
a) advanced german locomotives with finer parts could not stand up to the harsh winter conditions in Russia - I had the numbers once, but not sure now, I think in the worst cases around only a 1/3 of the scheduled monthly train departes actually made it to the destination. They eventually removed the finer parts to make them more robust during winter, adding them back again come summer, and lessons learned for winter of '42.
b) basic supplies & ammo were prioritized higher.
c) many rail lines not yet converted, leaving few options in case of partisan attacks.

Combine these and the result is what seems to have happened historically, the clothing did not reach the frontline units in time.

I don't get the impression this particularity is modelled in the game, but maybe abstracted into the drop of supplies which is seen during winter/blizzard.
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by sillyflower »

I have just reached end of my Dec 25 turn in GC41 game with latest patch. German army strength is I think slightly higher than was at end of Nov in numbers of men which has suprised me from experience in earlier games.

Russian hasn't been able to attack that much which has helped. On 1st blizzard turm my axis losses showed up as only 20K men and it's been 50-60 losses per turn since. Russians were weak enough (lost 3.8M up to that point + a LOT of factories) and I had a good buffer zone in many places so that counter offensive has been weak.

A lot of troops were in winter quarters ie cities (including Leningrad Moscow and Donbass) and high population towns but few units were in higher than L2 forts but even so that's a drastic reduction from the 70K I would have expected before.
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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by ParaB »

Weak winter?

I have captured Moscow and Leningrad and inflicted ~4 Mio casualties on the Red Army in 1941.

I'm now in turn 28 (Dec 25th '41) and have lost an average of 130.000 casualties a week since the Blizzards started. And I have 8 more weeks to go. I have no idea how I'll survive the winter.

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RE: Winter too weak now?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ParaB, have 2-units stacks German infantry divisions in minimum fort level 2. You should be pretty safe [:)] Now, if you cannot afford this (you can't do that everywhere, I guess), be deliberately weak in non important parts of the front and be strong is VITAL parts of the front.
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