Fortifications too much too fast

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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IdahoNYer
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Fortifications too much too fast

Post by IdahoNYer »

I know this has been threaded previously, but its just reared its ugly head in my PBEM campaign to the extreme.

Situation is Jul 23, 1942. We've been updating with each beta, and are now on 1.04.15.

As the Germans, I survived the blizzard what I thought was fairly intact, and went about starting my summer 1942 offensive only to run into Kursk 1943 like fortifications, in carpet depth, everywhere I attacked. I am now on the strategic defensive in Jul 1942. Welcome to France 1916...

I think the ability to fortify is too much, too quickly.

The screen shot shows an example. Note the LEVEL 5 fortifications protecting Moscow. The interesting thing here is that this area west and south of Moscow to Kaluga was taken by the Germans in 1941, only to be retaken by the Soviets in the blizzard. So all those Level 5 forts were built from scratch from Jan 42 to Jul 42!

Now if a level 5 fort is representative of a pre-war fixed installation such as Sevastopol, this is a bit too much!

The fortifications have turned a war of maneuver into a WW1 trench fight across the front. This is far from realistic.

My recommendations would be the following:
1. Limit max fortifications in non city/urban hexes to be set at a max of Level 2 from 1941-1943. This would represent not just an abilty to dig, but rather the ability to integrate fires and fieldworks into a defensive plan - something that was not very capable for either side in the early stages of the campaign
2. Increase the max fortification to level 3 in 1943-45 outside of city/urban areas.
3. No, or greatly reduced abiltiy to fortify in mud turns. Spring just means dig, dig, dig right now - resulting in robust fault lines after the thaw.

Anyway, just my thoughts and obserations from one campaign - obviously a narrow viewpoint of course.

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kirkgregerson
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by kirkgregerson »

That's nothing. At least his line is barely 2-3 hexes deep. I seen opponents an in AARs where the Soviets have a line 4-5 hexes deep in some places with lvl 3-5 forts.

I'm not suggestion anything be changed, because I've seen axis player in other AARs just blow through some of these lvl 3-4 forts with easy. It really depends on the game and how long the Soviet player has had units sitting and digging in. I image around Moscow they've been them for 6-8 months which makes sense for lvl 5 forts.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by PyleDriver »

Hum, Andy when I spoke to you you said the level 5 forts were almost impossiable to get now. Whats up guys? I saw level 5 around Leningrad in my game but in open terrian as Kirk states?
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by PyleDriver »

Someone made a suggestion, not sure where its posted, that level 4 & 5 forts should cost admin points to build up, I like the idea...Concreate is not cheap...One for level 4, two for level 5...
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Joel Billings »

How many turns have you been playing with a 1.04 version? I ask because these changes were made in 1.04.10:

6) Rule Changes to fort level construction rules:
(a) (Section 15.3.2.1) Decreased the fort build rates as follows:
Fort Level 0 3.0 (was 3.0, no change)
Fort Level 1 1.0 (was 1.0, no change)
Fort Level 2 0.25 (was 0.33)
Fort Level 3 0.05 (was 0.10)
Fort Level 4 0.01 (was 0.02)
(b) Construction values are reduced based on the supply level of the unit. In no event will they be reduced below 20% of normal due to supply level.
(c) Level 5 forts may continue to build up to 10% over level 5. This allows them to take some damage and still remain at Level 5.
(d) Artillery (especially Heavy Artillery) can cause small fort reductions during combat.
(e) Fort build rates for building forts greater than 3 can be divided by 2 if a leader admin check fails.

As you can see the time to build a level 4 or 5 fort should be much greater than it was (at least double the time and probably longer due to the new admin check). Of course, areas near major cities will get a boost with population helping to dig in. The AP cost to allow a level 4 or 5 is an interesting idea, but would require some interface to add. Units dig at 1/3 during mud turns, but it's true a lot of digging can get done during a long period of inactivity (less now with the 1.04.10 changes).
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Hum, Andy when I spoke to you you said the level 5 forts were almost impossiable to get now. Whats up guys? I saw level 5 around Leningrad in my game but in open terrian as Kirk states?

Jon

In my game there wasn't a single level 5 fort other than the one that starts the game in Sevastopol, but I only played it to turn 38. Remember around urban areas you have the population to help dig, especially if the enemy is within 20 hexes. There were even very few level 4 forts built, but those were around Moscow and Leningrad. Forts seem harder to destroy than they used to be too. I had to isolate them before I could take them out.

If the construction continues up until mid summer of 42, I can see where there would probably be a line of forts like shown above. At least they aren't all level 5.

The idea of costing an ap for a level 5 might work but I doubt it. Considering the number of ap's the Soviet gets or can get by placing a few motorised in static positions, he could easily make a hundred or so level 5 forts. Maybe just get rid of level 5 forts outside cities and urban areas.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

If we do go with an ap cost..it probably should be in the 5 and 10 point range rather than 1 or 2 otherwise you will still see a couple hundred of them.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Pawlock »

I dont think its unreasonble to see lvl 5 forts in Moscow at your time scale, if hes anything like me he has been fortifying that area since turn 2.

6 months to build, with const brigades and all the manpower Moscow can yield helping dont sound to much
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by IdahoNYer »

Joel - not sure exactly when we updated to 1.04. By checking my AAR posts, I can say that the area in question was under German control at the end of Dec turns, which was about March 9th, 2011 or so. We upgraded each Beta within a week of it coming out.

Sabre - APs are a good idea, but two comments - I think it should take more than a few months to construct something as robust as a level 5. And it should be an expensive cost going from 2+ and take lots of time to construct. 41-42 campaigns were characterized by maneuver, not breaching fortifications other than in isolated pre-war areas or cities.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by IdahoNYer »

Pawlock - if it was turn 2, I might agree with seeing the level 5. But this area was under German control until Jan 42....so he's had max about 5- 6 months.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: Pawlock

I dont think its unreasonble to see lvl 5 forts in Moscow at your time scale, if hes anything like me he has been fortifying that area since turn 2.

6 months to build, with const brigades and all the manpower Moscow can yield helping dont sound to much

Civilian manpower doesn't kick in until you get within a 25 hex range and there is a limit on how big a fort can get to (level 2) until the enemy also gets within 25 hexes.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by kirkgregerson »

I like the concept of the 25 hex rule for maximum lvl 2 forts. However, I would like to see a future change that would allow construction past this lvl 2 ceiling for an AP cost. The reason being it would be beneficial and prudent for Axis players and maybe Soviet players to continue building up forts behind the lines for various reasons. Some being invasions, airborne drops, etc.

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. Probably not a simple slam dunk for coding, but nothing excruciating.


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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Joel - not sure exactly when we updated to 1.04. By checking my AAR posts, I can say that the area in question was under German control at the end of Dec turns, which was about March 9th, 2011 or so. We upgraded each Beta within a week of it coming out.

Sabre - APs are a good idea, but two comments - I think it should take more than a few months to construct something as robust as a level 5. And it should be an expensive cost going from 2+ and take lots of time to construct. 41-42 campaigns were characterized by maneuver, not breaching fortifications other than in isolated pre-war areas or cities.

Right now it does take a lot longer than a few months to build a level 5 fort. Like I mentioned earlier, in my game after 8 months there was not a single level 5 fort built. I did take Moscow on T23 which had a level 4's. These were being built from T2 on.

The cost idea might work as long as it was something painful like 10 ap's..or maybe even 20. If it was only 2, you might as well not even bother changing the code because there will still be a ton of them out there.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Pawlock »

25 hexes is a long way, using Moscow as our example, he would have needed to kick the Axis back 3 hexes past Smolensk!
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by heliodorus04 »

I wrote something about this in Klydon's AAR, and I'm copying and pasting it for the debate here:

The game is more fun and better (and easily) balanced for human vs. human play by dropping the Soviet fortification level to 90 rather than 100.  The problem is how quickly 1 Soviet division can dig to a level 3 fort, and the fact that forts are interchangeable in terms of the omni-directional defensive bonus and the fact that a level 3 fort offers the same protection to several divisions even when only 1 division builds it.  Because they do not scale, its advantageous for the Soviet to do linear defenses in depth and when you need to switch from linear to hedgehog (primary example of this need is Leningrad's area) the Soviet has a plethora of level 2 and level 3 forts to choose from in which to place stacked defenses.  It's too flexible, and it gives the Soviet a level of operational flexibility in defense that they really didn't have in 1941 (probably even 1942).  Just a thought to consider.  In my GC'41, I've taken that hit, and it's harsh in 1941, but will probably make 1942 and 1943 a bit more fun for the Axis player, but we shall see.

Refer to my GC'41 here, in which I am playing Soviet with the 90 setting on Fortification.  It's much harder in 1941, but I suspect we will have a much more fun and fluid 1942 even into 1943. 

I don't think there's a problem with realism in the way forts are currently modeled.  I think it's another example of the omniscient human controller knowing exactly the optimal way of exploiting the game mechanics to his advantage.  While certain play balance issues are manipulable in this fashion, I encourage house rules and game settings to bring the fun into the simulation in place of less fun but more realistic entrenchment.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by PyleDriver »

Hell I'm amazed at how fast a division can come from no where and build to level one in the same turn...
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I wrote something about this in Klydon's AAR, and I'm copying and pasting it for the debate here:

The game is more fun and better (and easily) balanced for human vs. human play by dropping the Soviet fortification level to 90 rather than 100.  The problem is how quickly 1 Soviet division can dig to a level 3 fort, and the fact that forts are interchangeable in terms of the omni-directional defensive bonus and the fact that a level 3 fort offers the same protection to several divisions even when only 1 division builds it.  Because they do not scale, its advantageous for the Soviet to do linear defenses in depth and when you need to switch from linear to hedgehog (primary example of this need is Leningrad's area) the Soviet has a plethora of level 2 and level 3 forts to choose from in which to place stacked defenses.  It's too flexible, and it gives the Soviet a level of operational flexibility in defense that they really didn't have in 1941 (probably even 1942).  Just a thought to consider.  In my GC'41, I've taken that hit, and it's harsh in 1941, but will probably make 1942 and 1943 a bit more fun for the Axis player, but we shall see.

Refer to my GC'41 here, in which I am playing Soviet with the 90 setting on Fortification.  It's much harder in 1941, but I suspect we will have a much more fun and fluid 1942 even into 1943. 

I don't think there's a problem with realism in the way forts are currently modeled.  I think it's another example of the omniscient human controller knowing exactly the optimal way of exploiting the game mechanics to his advantage.  While certain play balance issues are manipulable in this fashion, I encourage house rules and game settings to bring the fun into the simulation in place of less fun but more realistic entrenchment.

As Joel mentioned, fort construction was slowed down quite a bit. Also the Germans can build forts much faster than the Soviets can so only slowing down the Soviets give the German even a better advantage.

To solve the trenchline situation that occurs come summer 42 is a tough one since without decent forts, the Soviets will be pummeled pretty hard in 41. Right now most German players do the Rumanian and Riga first turn gambits neither of which is historical. In most cases, leningrad also falls and Moscow can be taken fairly readily too. It takes a very good Soviet player to hold onto both of those cities against a determined German opponent and even then it is iffy.

Increasing fort time even more will make it even that much harder for a Soviet player to survive with anything close to historical in 41. I'm up for the idea of using ap's to build level 5's (maybe even level 4's) as long as it is in the 10 to 20 ap range.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Hell I'm amazed at how fast a division can come from no where and build to level one in the same turn...

Remember at one time it was an automatic for it to occur in 1 turn. Besides..level one are simple fortifications. In a week a guy with an entrenching tool can make one heck of a foxhole. So in reality, level 1 is really nothing, nor is level 2.

By the way, level 5 forts were never meant to represent maginot line fortifications. Trey had a pretty good description of what these levels should represent which is probably floating around the forum somewheres.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21


As Joel mentioned, fort construction was slowed down quite a bit. Also the Germans can build forts much faster than the Soviets can so only slowing down the Soviets give the German even a better advantage.

To solve the trenchline situation that occurs come summer 42 is a tough one since without decent forts, the Soviets will be pummeled pretty hard in 41. Right now most German players do the Rumanian and Riga first turn gambits neither of which is historical. In most cases, leningrad also falls and Moscow can be taken fairly readily too. It takes a very good Soviet player to hold onto both of those cities against a determined German opponent and even then it is iffy.

Increasing fort time even more will make it even that much harder for a Soviet player to survive with anything close to historical in 41. I'm up for the idea of using ap's to build level 5's (maybe even level 4's) as long as it is in the 10 to 20 ap range.

What would be ideal (to me, at least) is the 'old' system where you could modify gameplay during the game. I understand why that exploit was removed in terms of humans sort of cheating against one another by changing settings for their turn, or whatnot, it would be an easy way to manage what I consider to be the inevitable problem with the current game (granted, I'm not actually playing 1.04 yet, and it looks good on the whole), which is that human players who understand the system are going to create a world war 1 style detente that the Soviets slowly hammer down (only the Soviets get to start in 1942).

Forts are creating that issue (in my estimation, and I could be wrong).

On the one hand, I really like the tradeoff between moving and digging - the balance feels right. On the other hand, forts are omni-directional and scale automatically to the size of whatever occupies them, whether created by an NKVD regiment and later occupied by a guards corps. As I understand it, there's not really anything we can do about it, which I accept (while accepting, I do mumble under my breath that Gary Grigsby should be ashamed of himself for that abstraction from time to time).

I still wonder if the exploitation of game mechanic that forts are omni-directional should be that an attacker, when attacking from different hexsides (including hasty attacks that come at different times from different directions, or deliberates using multiple simultaneous attackers) gets a bonus 10% combat modifier (the same scaling modifier used for having different commands involved in an attack). Maneuver is how forts are rendered ineffective...

Would love to see that discussion get serious, but I'm happy to be talking this one for now.

As for the hit my game is taking on the Soviet but not the Axis: everything about the war is stacked in the Soviets favor (this is not a complaint about the game). I want my opponent to enjoy his game, and I want there to be an incentive for him to see opportunities for an enjoyable game that goes into 1945. The Soviet CAN lose everything between Leningrad and Rostov in 1941 and still win.
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RE: Fortifications too much too fast

Post by Joel Billings »

If this is the AAR game you are writing about in the forum, the day after the 1.04 version came out you posted screenshots from May 14, 1942. So it sounds like the construction for most if not all of the Spring was under the old 1.03 rules. I'm betting you would see many fewer 4 and 5 forts if you had the 1.04 changes for all of 42.
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