Partisans v.1.04.11

Post bug reports and request support here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21

kswanson1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by kswanson1 »

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Actually worst case for a 'break' is not a few tonnes of gravel, but several thousand tonnes of derailed rolling stock, or a dropped span of a bridge. Neither is easy to fix - moving large numbers of damaged or destroyed wagons and locomotives will require many men or heavy equipment. Bridge replacement can take days/weeks once materials are on hand.

Granted derailing locomotive and associated wagons is a more serious event. But RR cranes actually deal with such disasters routinely -- and they are mounted on rail cars so could be relied upon to approach the given disaster from either side of the problem via undamaged tracks. A RR crane is designed specifically to pick the sorts of loads associated with derailed locomotives or associated rolling stock. The nature of the repair or track clearing isn't something that delays strategic movement over the course of weeks. The Pick of even a locomotive occurs over the period of hours not weeks. And as we are talking about a single rail line that is of the utmost strategic importance in terms of supplying an entire Army Group, such equipment would be readily available in order to deal with derailment issues quickly and restablish movement along this ONE very important track.

Regarding Bridges, while I am not aware of any track that span rivers falling victim to the personal hell [:)] I am experiencing with the new WiTE partisan warfare, the only way to effectively put a long term hit on this sort of robust structure in reality is to destroy the abutments and bent supports. Both of which would typically be relying upon an extensive foundation system and huge concrete pile caps due to the loads being carried by the bridge spans. Neither of these elements is "easily" destroyed by a few pounds of explosive. We’re talking hundreds of pounds of explosive to be able to make dents in the like. I think the logistics associated with such a demolition would likely be beyond the means of a typical partisan band. That is unless they are operating out of swamps and forests with 18-wheelers packed with dynamite. Military bridge demolition is typically focused on the spans rather than the bent foundations and abutments. They are easy targets for explosives. But by the same token, the actual spans can be quickly repaired. Again the rather heavy materials required for the repair are easily transported almost right to the point of the demolition by use of the undamaged tracks on either side of the damaged bridge. This to include either heavy steel I-beam\trusses or heavy timber elements for reconstruction of damaged bridge trusses. Trusses or spanning elements were often prefabricated sections which could be puzzled together on the work site quickly. Certainly these sorts of repairs could be completed and functioning in terms of movement points expended within a given turn rather than complete loss of rail roads or RR bridges that require multiple game turns to put back into operation.

But having rambled on about this, I would be interested in historical examples of Partisan bands\gaggles completely obliterating heavy steel or concrete RR bridge structures and the associated time required for repair of the like.

Conversely repair times required by combat engineers\pioneers of bridges (both road and rail bridges) that were destroyed by opposing combat engineers is available. Read into the above, the level of destruction of a strategically important RR bridge by a band of free wheeling Partisans is unlikely to be of the same order of magnitude as what would be accomplished by combat engineers or pioneers when tasked with the same.

Sorry, but being a civil engineer by profession and having actually designed RR bedding and bridge foundations for a variety of different subgrade conditions, perhaps I have more faith in the ability of combat engineers to rapidly deal with these sorts of issues.
kswanson1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by kswanson1 »

The aspect of Liestes post that is of interest is the possibility that Partisan warfare within the game should be given the ability to reduce Axis rail capacity to reflect destruction of locomotives and rolling stock.

And while we are at it, there is a fair bit of historical evidence of Partisans targeting supply lorries. Perhaps depending upon the numbers of active Partisan units present on the map at any one time, there should be a resultant increase in the attrition rates for the German supply truck pool. 

But hopefully either suggestion would be crept up upon in steps rather than tsunami'd in one swoop.  And that the incremental steps be play tested by both the AI and by Human vs. Human to determine long term effects upon the game. 
User avatar
pompack
Posts: 2585
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:44 am
Location: University Park, Texas

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by pompack »

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.
Aditia
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:06 pm

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Aditia »

May I urge the devs to run a few tests with the 43-45 campaign. In v1.03 partisan attacks in that scenario came very close to putting most of AGC out of supply while I was dilligently garrissoning and hunting partisans.
kswanson1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by kswanson1 »

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.

Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...
User avatar
Redmarkus5
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Location: 0.00

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Redmarkus5 »

A genuine expert! Great to have those details and that perspective. I would just add the point, in support of kswanson1, that bridges in particular were heavily guarded and most attacks were therefore against unprotected stretches of track.
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
User avatar
Redmarkus5
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Location: 0.00

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.

Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...

I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
User avatar
Vorsteher
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 10:00 am
Contact:

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Vorsteher »

EDIT: Note that no city has ever been red due to lack of garrison and very few have been yellow for long. The partisan plague is not due to insufficient garrisons
This is full correct. In my scenario PBEM, the partisans attack my rails in the fourth turn.
It costs me the victory.
Image
User avatar
Wild
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:09 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Wild »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

ORIGINAL: pompack

OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply.

The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break.

Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points.

I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm...

I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

I am tempted to agree with Redmarkus on this.

Being a supporter of historicity in the game it is not easy, but what he say's makes sense.

After all, who wants to spend the game chasing partisans around, and a break in your main rail line completely takes the focus off your offensive to something i'm sure most people are not interested in (chasing partisans and restoring supply).

I can see this turning off many people and being a detriment to the game overall as people will get frustrated and quit playing.
Which will hurt sales of the planned upcoming War in the West and War in North Afrika. Thereby putting in danger of my dream game War in Europe.

I am coming to the conclusion that we must have some abstraction to keep the game fun, for the good of the overall planned project.


AKCLIMBER
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:48 pm
Location: Juneau, Alaska

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by AKCLIMBER »

ORIGINAL: kswanson1

Regarding Bridges, while I am not aware of any track that span rivers falling victim to the personal hell [:)] I am experiencing with the new WiTE partisan warfare, the only way to effectively put a long term hit on this sort of robust structure in reality is to destroy the abutments and bent supports. Both of which would typically be relying upon an extensive foundation system and huge concrete pile caps due to the loads being carried by the bridge spans. Neither of these elements is "easily" destroyed by a few pounds of explosive. We’re talking hundreds of pounds of explosive to be able to make dents in the like. I think the logistics associated with such a demolition would likely be beyond the means of a typical partisan band. That is unless they are operating out of swamps and forests with 18-wheelers packed with dynamite. Military bridge demolition is typically focused on the spans rather than the bent foundations and abutments. They are easy targets for explosives. But by the same token, the actual spans can be quickly repaired. Again the rather heavy materials required for the repair are easily transported almost right to the point of the demolition by use of the undamaged tracks on either side of the damaged bridge. This to include either heavy steel I-beam\trusses or heavy timber elements for reconstruction of damaged bridge trusses. Trusses or spanning elements were often prefabricated sections which could be puzzled together on the work site quickly. Certainly these sorts of repairs could be completed and functioning in terms of movement points expended within a given turn rather than complete loss of rail roads or RR bridges that require multiple game turns to put back into operation.

But having rambled on about this, I would be interested in historical examples of Partisan bands\gaggles completely obliterating heavy steel or concrete RR bridge structures and the associated time required for repair of the like.

Found the quotes below in a US Army publication: The Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944, publication no. 20-244, dated 1956, link here:

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/showfil ... me=166.pdf

Discussing operations in early 1943, the partisans still not close to having reached their peak strength/effectiveness, "...struck rather sharply at rail bridges [in addition to striking rail lines, etc.]. During February [1943] they successfully damaged or destroyed 12 behind the Sixteenth Army, and in March in the Bryansk area on orders from the Central Staff attacked 5 in force (4 of them important ones) and successfully blew 3, one the span over the Desna River at Wygonitschi on the Bryansk-Gomel line."

However, the publication also points out that "[a]lthough these attacks [in early 1943] interfered with the supply of the forward units for a time and at one point temporarily delayed the arrival of replacements, their over-all effect on the situation at the front was negligible."

Reading further (a pretty interesting topic I had never before explored), it's apparent that partisan activities and effectiveness only increased with time.

That said, I'd be happy with a further abstraction of partisan effects and countermeasures.

Cheers!
ussdefiant
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:06 pm

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by ussdefiant »

myself playing the Soviets usually, i think the amount of partisan units generated by surrundered Sov units was yanked up quite too high by the 1.04 betas. Prior, i got 3-6 battalions forming on a typical Turn 2 after the AI clears out the pockets it forms around Minsk on turn one, but now i see 10-13 battalions on my last couple of turn 2 runs, which seems to me to be a bit much. The prior generation rate with the help of the fixed air drops of supplies seems rather more appropiates.
User avatar
Helpless
Posts: 15786
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:12 pm

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Helpless »

i think the amount of partisan units generated by surrundered Sov units was yanked up quite too high by the 1.04 betas

Yes, I found a bug with it. Thanks for bringing it up.
Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development
User avatar
sillyflower
Posts: 3509
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:39 pm
Location: Back in Blighty

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by sillyflower »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4



I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

Seems good idea to me
web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
James Ward
Posts: 1163
Joined: Tue May 09, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by James Ward »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing.

Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity.

Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime.

Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant.

I agree, it should be abstracted. Maybe if garrisons were not maintained then the amount of suppy, replacements and rail capacity could be reduced by some percentage. This gives the Germans an incentive to maintian garrisions without creating a whole sub game of chasing partisan units and repairing rail lines.
User avatar
Redmarkus5
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Location: 0.00

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: James Ward

I agree, it should be abstracted. Maybe if garrisons were not maintained then the amount of suppy, replacements and rail capacity could be reduced by some percentage. This gives the Germans an incentive to maintian garrisions without creating a whole sub game of chasing partisan units and repairing rail lines.

Excellent idea. If they really wanted to abstract this and allow players to focus on combat, there would be a garrison 'holding box', similar to the National Reserve for the Air Force and you would simply place the required number of units there.
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
User avatar
Redmarkus5
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Location: 0.00

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by Redmarkus5 »

Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14

This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned.

Image
Attachments
Partisans1.jpg
Partisans1.jpg (462.28 KiB) Viewed 13 times
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
User avatar
sillyflower
Posts: 3509
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:39 pm
Location: Back in Blighty

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by sillyflower »

Attacks looks suspiciously well co-ordinated with the other attacks
web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
kswanson1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by kswanson1 »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14

This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned.

OUCH! That's just a bit over the top. I love how the rail attacks follow right behind the FBD unit.

The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?

After seeing that image, yeah I think I'd vote for Partisan Abstraction. That's five turns worth of repair for the FBD. Picture that same result 20 or 30-hexes away from the nearest FBD. Now your talking an entire section of the front being isolated for a month and a half while the FBD marches back to the breaks and than starts slowly repairing the tracks.

On a completely different not, I Love the minor city names thingie your using. Where can I find that?
JAMiAM
Posts: 6127
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:35 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: kswanson1


The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?
My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...[;)]
kswanson1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

Post by kswanson1 »

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: kswanson1


The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units?
My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...[;)]

unfortunately -- and I know this from direct experiance of the partisan tsunami -- it still costs an FBD unit 3-MPs to repair Partisan breaks. That's even when the break damage is only 10% or whatever.

Has anyone tested to see if breaks are occuring within the ZOC of combat units?

Can we get battalion break downs for German infantry or something. Can we also get all those weirdo sub-regimental sized anti-partisan units the germans used during the war but that arent depicted in the game. This boo-boo needs some counter balancing. It's a game ruiner and unless your playing the Germans in PBEM right now you really dont get a sense for just how bad this makes the Germans supply situation.
Post Reply

Return to “Tech Support”