Firing LATW from within buildings
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Firing LATW from within buildings
I have read some startling misinformation regarding firing LATW (bazooka, Panzerfaust, etc.) from within buildings. I won't name names but I am sure most people hear the claim 'it's overpressure'. That is BS.
Please review the following comparison of German rocket fired LATW ('shreck) and Faust weapons:
Specs - Panzerfaust 30:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 5100gr. Tube Diameter: 44mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 30m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 95g Black powder.
Effective Range: 30m.
Specs - Panzerfaust 60:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 6100gr. Tube Diameter: 50mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 45 m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 134g Black powder.
Effective Range: 60m.
KE=1/2mv^2
0.5*2.9*45*45=2936
Name: Raketenpanzerbüchse, AKA Panzerschreck
Type: Anti-tank rocket launcher
Caliber: 88 mm
Weight: 9,5 kg
Rocket weight: 3,25 kg
Barrel length: 1,35 m
Range: 180 meters
Muzzle velocity: 110 m/sec
Armour penetration: 230 mm
KE=0.5*3.250*110*110=19663
I am comparing the kinetic energy of the warheads fired by a PF60 and a Panzershreck. Its about 6.7 times the kinetic energy for the shreck than a panzerfaust.
The two weapons differ in propulsion in that a rocket motor will shoot nearly all its thrust backward before leaving the tube. The panzerfaust, which is really a primitive smootbore recoiless rifle of sorts, will blast the charge backwards, but the release of pressure is also directed forward once the projectile leaves the end of the weapon. So if both weapons are used by protruding the end out of the window of a house, the rocket type weapon will introduce further energy into the room.
The size of the room and the amount of windows, holes in walls and open doors also plays into it. But 'overpressure' from a panzerfaust? I don't think so. Think of a panzerfaust like a very big old muzzle-loading elephant gun that a large man has decided to discharge inside a room without a bullet. I would not want to fire a shreck nor a M72 law or any rocket inside a building without a blown out cieling or multiple windows, etc. But a PF30? No problem.
Please review the following comparison of German rocket fired LATW ('shreck) and Faust weapons:
Specs - Panzerfaust 30:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 5100gr. Tube Diameter: 44mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 30m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 95g Black powder.
Effective Range: 30m.
Specs - Panzerfaust 60:
Length: 1045mm Weight: 6100gr. Tube Diameter: 50mm.
Warhead Diameter: 140mm.
Warhead Load: 800g TNT/Thc.
Warhead Length: 495mm.
Warhead Weight: 2900gr.
Warhead Velocity: 45 m/s.
Armor Penetration @ 90 degrees: 200mm.
Propellant Load: 134g Black powder.
Effective Range: 60m.
KE=1/2mv^2
0.5*2.9*45*45=2936
Name: Raketenpanzerbüchse, AKA Panzerschreck
Type: Anti-tank rocket launcher
Caliber: 88 mm
Weight: 9,5 kg
Rocket weight: 3,25 kg
Barrel length: 1,35 m
Range: 180 meters
Muzzle velocity: 110 m/sec
Armour penetration: 230 mm
KE=0.5*3.250*110*110=19663
I am comparing the kinetic energy of the warheads fired by a PF60 and a Panzershreck. Its about 6.7 times the kinetic energy for the shreck than a panzerfaust.
The two weapons differ in propulsion in that a rocket motor will shoot nearly all its thrust backward before leaving the tube. The panzerfaust, which is really a primitive smootbore recoiless rifle of sorts, will blast the charge backwards, but the release of pressure is also directed forward once the projectile leaves the end of the weapon. So if both weapons are used by protruding the end out of the window of a house, the rocket type weapon will introduce further energy into the room.
The size of the room and the amount of windows, holes in walls and open doors also plays into it. But 'overpressure' from a panzerfaust? I don't think so. Think of a panzerfaust like a very big old muzzle-loading elephant gun that a large man has decided to discharge inside a room without a bullet. I would not want to fire a shreck nor a M72 law or any rocket inside a building without a blown out cieling or multiple windows, etc. But a PF30? No problem.
RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
Singling bazooka shot
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
That 'attic' area is, for all intents, just open air. No real back-blast issues at all. An issue with firing LATW from 'higher' elevations to short-ranged lower targets is that most troops would not have trained on it. It would actually extend the range quite well. A top hit on an AFV could be possible. But retribution fire would certainly be coming since the firing would give you away.
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
http://trizna.ru/galerea/albums/userpics/Panzerfaust_30_klein.pdf
The 'Klein' could easily be fired within a building as in room-to-room fighting.
edit: Funny, but the 'Burns' bazooka looks like a panzerfaust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjXFOV6 ... re=related
The 'Klein' could easily be fired within a building as in room-to-room fighting.
edit: Funny, but the 'Burns' bazooka looks like a panzerfaust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjXFOV6 ... re=related
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... illess.htm
Since the end of World War II, the US Army has conducted extensive testing on the effects of firing recoilless weapons from within enclosures. Beginning as early as 1948, tests have been conducted on every type of recoilless weapon available. In 1975, the US Army Human Engineering Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, conducted extensive firing of the LAW, Dragon, and TOW from masonry and frame buildings, and from sandbag bunkers.
Firing these weapons from enclosures presented no serious hazards, even when the overpressure was enough to produce structural damage to the building. Little hazard exists to the gunnery or crew from any type of flying debris. Loose items were not hurled around the room. No substantial degradation occurs to the operator's tracking performance as a result of obscuration or blast overpressure.
The most serious hazard that can be expected is hearing loss. This must be evaluated against the advantage gained in combat from firing from cover. To place this hazard in perspective, a gunner wearing earplugs and firing the loudest combination (the Dragon from within a masonry building) is exposed to less noise hazard than if he fired a LAW in the open without earplugs.
The safest place for other soldiers in the room with the shooter is against the wall from which the weapon is fired. Firers should take advantage of all available sources of ventilation by opening doors and windows. Ventilation does not reduce the noise hazard, but it helps clear the room of smoke and dust, and reduces the effective duration of the overpressure.
The only difference between firing these weapons from enclosures and firing them in the open is the duration of the pressure fluctuation. Frame buildings, especially small ones, can suffer structural damage to the rear walls, windows, and doors. Large rooms suffer slight damage, if any. Recoilless weapons fired from within enclosures create some obscuration inside the room, but almost none from the gunner's position looking out. Inside the room, obscuration can be intense, but the room remains inhabitable.
The Dragon causes the most structural damage, but only in frame buildings. There does not seem to be any threat of injury to the gunner, since the damage is usually to the walls away from the gunner. The most damage and debris is from flying plaster chips and pieces of wood trim. Large chunks of plasterboard can be dislodged from ceilings. The backblast from the AT4, Dragon, or TOW rarely displaces furniture.
While the results of the tests may have shown that the threat of injury from debris is rare, commanders must ensure that proper safety precautions are followed prior to firing weapons inside a room.
- Mad Russian
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
That's a GREAT report. Possibly the best post I've ever seen you give us.
Good Hunting.
MR
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I have been around and fired LAW. Its LOUD. But I am also an engineer and know BS when I hear it. It is obvious that the 1:1 boys are being fed BS.
- Mad Russian
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I fired the LAW and was around both the TOW and Dragon ATGW systems as well.
In any case, that was a post I can use. Thanks.
Good Hunting.
MR
In any case, that was a post I can use. Thanks.
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
- Prince of Eckmühl
- Posts: 2459
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- Location: Texas
RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember
I have been around and fired LAW. Its LOUD.
The discharge of the weapon, or its detonation?
But I am also an engineer and know BS when I hear it.
Damn, Pugsley, a few dozen posts back you were a "cartographer."
I was an army cartographer and the lay of the land is not random.
You can claim to be all the things and all the different folks that you wish to be, but don't expect your readers to ignore the routine inconsistencies.
It is obvious that the 1:1 boys are being fed BS.
Ah, great, another BS thread.[8|]
Government is the opiate of the masses.
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
Ok troll. Read the rules. Where is your anti-semetic buddy HELLMANN?
edit: oh yeah, a couple years in the service might have done you some good!
edit: oh yeah, a couple years in the service might have done you some good!
RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I worked for the company the built the TOW. Oh, never mind TMI.ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I fired the LAW and was around both the TOW and Dragon ATGW systems as well.
All your Tanks are Belong to us!
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I just hate to see the truth of matters being over-run by civvie-revisionists. I suppose the 1:1 'guys' and the die-hard fanbois have the new-skinny.
Edit: POE new name is MUTTSLY.
I was an Army Engineer 81c20 NCO
Any serviceman is trained in weapons. The fact that PRINCE OF MUTTSLY is ignorant of a army life just furthers my impression that he is a shut-in.
I have carried and fired M16, M60, M203, LAW and thrown real grenades. I served with Vietnam Veteran NCOs. I served with combat veteran Engineers.
I have worked with military contractors and driven and designed around tracked vehicles. I have been to quite a few military bases.
I know that many wargamers are just posers. The internet has given the cowards amongst them a springboard into fantasy land.
In no way does my interest in this hobby associate me with cartoon-boys or shut-ins like MUTTSLY.
edit: oh yeah, claymore...very loud
Edit: POE new name is MUTTSLY.
I was an Army Engineer 81c20 NCO
Any serviceman is trained in weapons. The fact that PRINCE OF MUTTSLY is ignorant of a army life just furthers my impression that he is a shut-in.
I have carried and fired M16, M60, M203, LAW and thrown real grenades. I served with Vietnam Veteran NCOs. I served with combat veteran Engineers.
I have worked with military contractors and driven and designed around tracked vehicles. I have been to quite a few military bases.
I know that many wargamers are just posers. The internet has given the cowards amongst them a springboard into fantasy land.
In no way does my interest in this hobby associate me with cartoon-boys or shut-ins like MUTTSLY.
edit: oh yeah, claymore...very loud
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I have reported the troll Prince of Eckmuhl as well as the anti-semite Hellman 'character'. Its obvious that these posters are on some obsessive mission to derail any conversation. I look forward to some action on the part of the Rutins.
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I knew a guy that was a dragon gunner. He said that they used earplugs not just for hearing protection but also for concentration on the target. Supposedly a difficult weapon system to master.
- Mad Russian
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
The Dragon was hard to control. I understand it would rise as it flew towards the target instead of flying straight.
So Mobius, did you get to fire a TOW?
It's not outside the realm of possibilities to see PC evolve into modern combat. Or 1939, or some jungle settings....I could go on and on....
Good Hunting.
MR
So Mobius, did you get to fire a TOW?
It's not outside the realm of possibilities to see PC evolve into modern combat. Or 1939, or some jungle settings....I could go on and on....
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
I have come across a few accounts of LATW being used to 'mousehole' through building walls. Including rowhouses so that the streets can be avoided. The accounts include US use of bazooka, US use of panzerfaust, German use of panzerfaust and soviet use of panzerfaust.
Edit: To be clear, the LATW are fired intra-building not from the outisde.
Edit: To be clear, the LATW are fired intra-building not from the outisde.
RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
No. I just did programming for the company. It was a long time ago. We did get to see actual combat film of them hitting various targets but it was the IDF using them.ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So Mobius, did you get to fire a TOW?
All your Tanks are Belong to us!
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- Chad Harrison
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember
It is obvious that the 1:1 boys are being fed BS.
Whats with the constant harassment here towards BFC?
I play and enjoy both BFC and Matrix games. Dont see why it has to be so many 'they suck and were awesome' comments here. Its no different than listening to pimple faced 12 year old argue whether the XBOX or Play Station is better.
Chad
- Mad Russian
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison
ORIGINAL: Yoozernamemember
It is obvious that the 1:1 boys are being fed BS.
Whats with the constant harassment here towards BFC?
I play and enjoy both BFC and Matrix games. Dont see why it has to be so many 'they suck and were awesome' comments here. Its no different than listening to pimple faced 12 year old argue whether the XBOX or Play Station is better.
Chad
+1
Good Hunting.
MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
- Erik Rutins
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RE: Firing LATW from within buildings
Prince of Eckmuhl,
I warned earlier about bringing past issues into this forum. Hellman and Yoozername were warned, now you are warned. While there may be a history that justifies that post in your eyes, it doesn't matter as far as our forum rules are concerned. Trolling posts and making personal attacks gets you a warning and if repeated, a ban.
Yoozernamemember,
You were already warned in the previous exchange with Hellman. Reporting the post is fine and good, but going on the counter attack is not, it just multiplies the initial problem. Personal attacks, even in response to a trolling post, are not ok here. I'm giving you a two week vacation from the forum to consider our rules. If you feel you can follow them in the future, e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com in two weeks and your access will be restored.
I'll also reiterate to everyone that constructive and civil discussions to share our interest in gaming is the purpose of these forums.
Regards,
- Erik
I warned earlier about bringing past issues into this forum. Hellman and Yoozername were warned, now you are warned. While there may be a history that justifies that post in your eyes, it doesn't matter as far as our forum rules are concerned. Trolling posts and making personal attacks gets you a warning and if repeated, a ban.
Yoozernamemember,
You were already warned in the previous exchange with Hellman. Reporting the post is fine and good, but going on the counter attack is not, it just multiplies the initial problem. Personal attacks, even in response to a trolling post, are not ok here. I'm giving you a two week vacation from the forum to consider our rules. If you feel you can follow them in the future, e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com in two weeks and your access will be restored.
I'll also reiterate to everyone that constructive and civil discussions to share our interest in gaming is the purpose of these forums.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.