Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

I see that Gary has started an AAR for this game, and we haven't even started yet. I wonder what tall tales his is telling there. [:)]

I will try to keep up with the AAR, but I am bad about it, so there might be some gaps. If I get questions and/or suggestions I will be more inclined to post - I hate it when I feel I am just posting for myself.

This is a scenario 1 game with limited house rules:

Code: Select all

These were from Gary
 
    1. Issuing orders on turn 1: In order to simulate suprise, Japanese player will have the freedom to issue
       any orders he wants on turn 1 except where they conflict with other house rules. Allies OTOH can give no 
       orders of any kind on turn 1.
 
    2. Turn 1 Port Attacks: Japanese player may attack simultaneously in only one time zone of the map on turn
       1.  In other words if you choose to port attack Manila you can't port attack Pearl but you can also port 
       attack Singapore. If you port attack Pearl then you can't port attack Manila or Singapore.
 
    3. Japanese player cannot knowingly go after Allied carriers on turn 1. However, after turn 1 game is open.
 
 I proposed the following:
  
     1. Max aircraft altitude is the second best maneuver band.  This seems to be the best I have seen and tried.  
        It limits the worst of the high altitude sweeps and such and yet allows the different aircraft to be 
        different.
     2. No strategic city attacks in or out of China before 1/1/44.  It is too easy for the Japanese to completely 
        eliminate the Chinese supply and thus the Chinese.
 
Gary decided that my #1 rule was not needed.

I guess the first thing to be decided when playing the Japanese is just what goals do I have and what is the overall style and direction I am expecting to take the game in.

I have two games as Allies now and both of my opponents have basically just taken what I would consider the pre-war Japanese expected conquests and started defending. Since neither over extended themselves, I have found it hard to find a way to attack early. Both games are in April 1943 and even though I am preparing massive offensives for the very near future now, there has been no good way to attack before this. Neither is moving KB to a location I can see so I have to wonder just where their assets are. It is a bit frustrating.

So, at least one idea is to secure Burma, DEI, New Guinea, and Solomon Islands. A base or two in the Aleutians would be useful too.

The counter idea is to go all out and try to take either India or OZ. Either is an intriguing idea but which one and with what resources? If I invade one or the other, do I go for the entire country or stop short of the reinforcement line? My feeling is that I would want to go for the entire country, the reinforcements arrive mostly at off map locations so really the Allies just have a little bit more that the normal massive LCU strength.

Something in the middle is also attractive, Burma, DEI, NG, Solomons, New Caldonia, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa. Coupled with a reinforced China force that would try for a China elimination. This has the advantage that the Islands could be protected with smallish forces and the presence of KB to discourage Gary from trying to take back the South Pacific islands too early. Mostly this is somewhat of a delaying tactic. I would be hoping to inflict some serious losses on his forces when he makes those invasions. Of course, he might decide to attack from somewhere else ( Java or Timor area or possibly into Sumatra).

I will have to make a decision soon, before I complete my turn one. I have a lot to do and most of it will be somewhat conventional. I will put about historic strength into Luzon, but will leave Mindanao until later.
Attacks into Ambon, Kendari, and Koepang are top on my list along with Northern Borneo. I will need to find troops to take Rabaul, Port Moseby, and Lunga along with engineers and aircraft. Palembang is also high on the take early list. Lots of decisions to make and only a few more days to make them. I have given myself until Sunday morning to finish my turn 1. The major decisions have to be made in the next couple of days. I have made a mistake before of starting a game as Japan without a clear plan and it was a disaster. I do not plan to do that again.

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.

User avatar
PaxMondo
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:23 pm

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by PaxMondo »

Subscribed. 
 
Now to settle back in comfort!
 
Cheers Mate!
 
Pax
User avatar
PaxMondo
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:23 pm

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by PaxMondo »

My $0.02:
 
If you decide to go all out, I wouldn't mind seeing you go for India.  Two reasons: One, hasn't been done yet but been awful close to show it could be done.  Two, if you do and take out china, even if you don't auto-victory, I think having your western flank so secure until SOV intervention is going to allow you to really frustrate the US offensive.
 
Pax
User avatar
BJStone
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:18 pm

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by BJStone »

ORIGINAL: Nomad

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.

Maybe go for the oil? Sumatra, Borneo, Java, & Burma would be a good start. And if you take Burma and close down the China supply line that should make things easier on the Chinese front. Other then the glory of taking India, what is there that you want?

Oil Centers within the reach of the Rising Sun:

Rawalpindi, India----------020

Medan, Sumatra-----------210
Bangkalis, Sumatra-------040
Djambi, Sumatra----------250
Palembang, Sumatra----- 900

Miri, Borneo----------------150
Brunie, Borneo------------010(010)
Tarakan, Borneo----------090
Balikpapan, Borneo-------300
Samarinda, Borneo-------100

Magwe, Burma------------300
Ledo, Burma--------------070

Soerabaja, Java----------190
Tjepoe, Java--------------035

Lanchow, China------------090
Unumachi, China-----------050
Sian, China-----------------020

Boela, DEI------------------025
Babo, DEI-------------------020
User avatar
DivePac88
Posts: 3119
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: Somewhere in the South Pacific.

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by DivePac88 »

Subscribed... A Master directing the Rising Sun.
Image
When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by obvert »

I vote for India and then China. Clear the whole left side. If you can do it in 42 the Allies have little to work with in the So Pac and your LBA can keep them at bay there and in the DEI until 43.

If it works you bring up the threat of auto victory, which may bring those Allied CVs into the light, and also are set up well for a later defense. Plus it would just be fun. With Australia you would have all of the extras piled into Burma and knocking at your vitals early in 43. Plus, there would be more supply and less need for it after the conquest of India. Whereas in Australia you would have to keep it well stocked and garrisoned for as long as you kept it.

To hide intent and secure the north flank I would also grab an Aleutian or two, and the historical including Noumea and PM in the So Pac. Could keep the mini KB as a retaliation force in the pacific, and move the KB to India to guard the reinforcement lanes between Aden/Cape Town, and Karachi/Bombay. If you were very tricky, would it be possible to swing KB into Indian ocean between Sumatra and Java and hit the British fleet early, before he moves the CVs and large surface fleet out? Just a thought.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Alfred
Posts: 6683
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Nomad

...I have two games as Allies now and both of my opponents have basically just taken what I would consider the pre-war Japanese expected conquests and started defending. Since neither over extended themselves, I have found it hard to find a way to attack early. Both games are in April 1943 and even though I am preparing massive offensives for the very near future now, there has been no good way to attack before this. Neither is moving KB to a location I can see so I have to wonder just where their assets are. It is a bit frustrating.

So, at least one idea is to secure Burma, DEI, New Guinea, and Solomon Islands. A base or two in the Aleutians would be useful too.

The counter idea is to go all out and try to take either India or OZ. Either is an intriguing idea but which one and with what resources? If I invade one or the other, do I go for the entire country or stop short of the reinforcement line? My feeling is that I would want to go for the entire country, the reinforcements arrive mostly at off map locations so really the Allies just have a little bit more that the normal massive LCU strength.

Something in the middle is also attractive, Burma, DEI, NG, Solomons, New Caldonia, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa. Coupled with a reinforced China force that would try for a China elimination. This has the advantage that the Islands could be protected with smallish forces and the presence of KB to discourage Gary from trying to take back the South Pacific islands too early. Mostly this is somewhat of a delaying tactic. I would be hoping to inflict some serious losses on his forces when he makes those invasions. Of course, he might decide to attack from somewhere else ( Java or Timor area or possibly into Sumatra).

I will have to make a decision soon, before I complete my turn one. I have a lot to do and most of it will be somewhat conventional. I will put about historic strength into Luzon, but will leave Mindanao until later.
Attacks into Ambon, Kendari, and Koepang are top on my list along with Northern Borneo. I will need to find troops to take Rabaul, Port Moseby, and Lunga along with engineers and aircraft. Palembang is also high on the take early list. Lots of decisions to make and only a few more days to make them. I have given myself until Sunday morning to finish my turn 1. The major decisions have to be made in the next couple of days. I have made a mistake before of starting a game as Japan without a clear plan and it was a disaster. I do not plan to do that again.

i am open to suggestions if anyone wants to make them.


Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive[:)]) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players[:)]) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.[;)]

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred
User avatar
Cribtop
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: Lone Star Nation

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Cribtop »

I second Alfred's recommendation. If you are going for outright conquest of India, consider seizing Karachi by sea and then blockading India's west coast to prevent arrival of reinforcements. I would also read Canoerebel's side of the AAR for further insights by an Allied player trying to counter an India invasion.

Nemo once said either go for full conquest of India or don't land a single troop there. After much thought I agree, although seizing NE India can get you a buffer and a good amount of industry. Invading India without crossing the line of death only lets the Allies have a free sanctuary from which to engage you in a ground war with restricted LCUs. This is the basis for my recommendation that you hit Karachi early if you plan on India. If playing Scenario 1 the task of course is harder.
Image
User avatar
vettim89
Posts: 3664
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:38 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive[:)]) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players[:)]) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.[;)]

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Boy, talk about a murderer's row:

Nemo - let's face it, Matrix gave a special copy of the game to him: WITP-NE (Nemo edition)

Chickenboy - too busy studying the effect of the Eastern New Guinea biting louse on morale to be of much help

Bullwinkle - busy thwarting Boris and Natasha's latest evil scheme

John 3rd - one wonders what happen to John 1st and John 2nd

crsutton - when crsutton talks, people listen

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred

Just joking guys. If anyone could figure out how to take India, its that group
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by obvert »

Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred

Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

ORIGINAL: obvert
Nomad,

I note that you did not post in Q-Ball's AAR v Canoerebel. That suggests to me that you have not read that particular AAR.

Rather than just receiving short suggestions from others now, I would strongly urge you to read that AAR in full. Although it deals with scenario 2, the extensive (and I do mean extensive) discussion in that AAR from several adept Japanese players (and some pure Allied players) should help you in formulating your thoughts for move 1 of this game. Not only will you see the many different ideas floated but also how successful they were.

Just in case I need a bit more star power to get you to read that AAR, some of the regulars who posted extensively on that AAR were:

Nemo
Chickenboy
Bullwinkle
John 3rd
crsutton

plus more limited contributions from several other regular players.

Alfred

Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.

What??? Japan failed? Horrors. I have started reading, I am up to the start of the invasion of Ceylon. I will finish tonight( I am reading Q-Balls AAR first ).
FatR
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:04 am
Location: St.Petersburg, Russia

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by FatR »

Conquests in the Pacific beyond the historical line (+Port Moresby and maybe southern Gilberts) are enormous logistical drain and will leave your perimeter stretched and vulnerable. I think total conquest of either India or Australia is unfeasible in Scen 1. I mean it might theoretically happen, but not because of your actions, because the opponent made some colossal blunders. Not a good bet to make.

I think the only region that definitely should be added to the perimeter in Scen 1, beyond the standard fare, is Northern Australia. The buffer against a direct Allied attack to DEI is really nice, and logistical difficulties make it relatively hard to retake by ground. Invasions beyond that, well, aren't totally unworthy of consideration, because they might be used to destroy Allied garrizons and draw Allied fleets into battle, but everything else on the map is either very hard and risky to hold by autumn of 1942, or not really worth holding. Better to use one's forces to pressure China harder, IMO.

The Reluctant Admiral mod team.

Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
User avatar
vettim89
Posts: 3664
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:38 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by vettim89 »

Unfortunately Ken knows from our 2x2 as Allies that the Allies can fall all the way back to French Polynesia in early 1942 without it being much more than a nuisance (I say unfortunately in that it happened to us and we were pretty powerless to stop it). I know Ken knows this but a Division or two post haste to Palembang my friend!
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

Hmmm, sounds like FatR laid down a challenge. I will ponder some more. I don't need to make the final decision yet, so I will get back to doing my turn 1.
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

Well, we are off. I sent off the first turn to Gary just now. Probably not perfect, but I hope good enough. I make at least one error( I hit something wrong when I was doing my aircraft production and ended up with a factory making 70 C5M2 instead of 90 A6M2) I made the necessary corrections, it will make things a bit tight in the first few turns, but no big problem.

I still have not completely made up my mind about going to India or elsewhere, but I have set up my first turn to at least allow me to go that way. For right now my divisional assignment are:

Code: Select all

 2nd Division	Malaya		
 4th Division	Sumatra
 5th Division	Malaya		Patani
 16th Division	Philippines	Maubaun
 18th Division	Malaya		Kota Bharu
 21st Division	Malaya
 33rd Division	Sumatra
 38th Division	Hong Kong
 48th Division	Philippines	Vigan
 55th Division	Burma
 56th Division	Burma
 Imperial Guards	Malaya		Singora(RR)
 
I do have the required two divisions prepping and moving toward Palembang. I intend to take it early. If I am going to India, I need to take Malaya reasonably quickly, so I did allot 5 divisions to that end. I did not plan for a Mersing gambit. The 38th will most likely go to Java after taking Hong Kong. The South Pacific will have to make due with SNLFs and Naval Guards units. The 5 Malaya divisions and the two Sumatra divisions would be the leading assault troops for an India invasion.

I ran a number of tests while doing my turn and in every one of them the Zuikaku Kates attacked in the afternoon, I do not know why.

I expect Gary to return the turn quickly when he knows he has it.
Alfred
Posts: 6683
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Alfred »

Sounds like a sensible, flexible plan.

I'm on the record of not being overly concerned about the festung Palembang ploy but if you can capture Palembang early without adversely affecting your other operations, then by all means go for it. Are you proposing to go Sinkawang first and them immediately Palembang? That would seem to be the quick way of capturing Palembang. Delaying the capture of Miri/Brunei by a couple of weeks to accomodate Palembang would be neither here nor there.

Alfred
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

Right now my plan is to move the two divisions to Cam Rahn Bay and then move to Palembang. I have a small force out that can go to Sinkawang if I feel it is safe. It depends on whether I sink force Z on turn one or not. I also have a force moving to Miri. I have a number of small forces at Babeldaub that will be moving into the Ambon, Kendari, Timor area.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Exactly. While I'm no expert here, I read both AARs in their entirety, and there is all you need to know to fix what went wrong for Japan in that game in the discussions.

As an AI-only player I certainly don't belong with that august group. My main contribution was endlessly, ceaselessly, advocating taking Karachi now, Now, NOW!!! To me, India is a naval campaign more than land. And it should begin in the west and move east.

I think should Karachi be secured early that India is certainly doable, although it offers many, many challenges related to garrisons, supply routes, etc, etc. ad infinitum. It is quite possible that the main challenge to India (or Oz) is not in the mechanics or the analysis, but rather the guts to commit 100%, to burn the ships on the shore and move toward the goal with no recourse but to win or die. I believe Q-Ball would say that his error was not so much in the plan (although he left Karachi alone out of fear of the Line of Death), but in the willingness to commit hammer and tongs to the plan.
The Moose
User avatar
Cribtop
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:42 pm
Location: Lone Star Nation

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Cribtop »

Listen to the Bullwinkle if you are planning on India. He more thoroughly articulated my point from earlier posts. Take Karachi and blockade the West coast of India or steer another direction, IMHO.
Image
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Just Old, Old, Old Nomad(J) vs Gary(A) NO Gary

Post by Nomad »

OK, first turn is done and returned. I expect Gary to take at least 2 days to get things organized. Things went well, but not perfect. I did not get any reports of BBs sinking at PH, but both Repulse and PoW have been sunk. I am going to bomb PH another day and see if some more ships sink. Might not be the right thing to do, but I like to hit PH hard and it looks like two days is it this time.

India, there are a lot of possibilities in India.
1. Do nothing, occupy Burma, fortify and wait.
2. Take Ceylon and Burma and wait.
3. Take Ceylon, Burma, and the Bengal region.
4. My favorite, land at Karachi first. I think this is the only way you can take India. You trigger the reinforcements early but most of them will be stuck in Aden.
From the Bullwinkle report:
xAK Charles McCormick arrives at Cristobal
xAK Ganges arrives at Cape Town
AM Kiwi arrives at Auckland
AM Moa arrives at Auckland
XXI Indian Corps arrives at Aden
6th Indian Division arrives at Abadan
10th Indian Division arrives at Aden
Waziristan Division arrives at Karachi
31st Armoured Division arrives at Aden
8th Indian Division arrives at Aden
Emergency Convoy Supply Convoy arrives at Aden
5th Indian Division arrives at Aden
XXI Corps Engineer Battalion arrives at Aden

So, you will have to deal with an extra division at Karachi since it will show up before you can take the city. And the Waziristan Division is not very strong, it has no heavy weapons, mostly infantry and support.

So, if I was going to invade India, I would first have taken Malaya, Sumatra, Christmas Island, Cocos Island, and Diego Garcia( you might want to take Addu also). Then move through the straits between Sumatra and Java to the edge of the map board. Go up the side of the map to about 10 hexes of Socotra. Send an invasion fleet to Socotra, it will be needed as a float plane search base and most importantly, send at least 6 Lima AKEs and 9 large AOs. The rest of what you take goes directly to Karachi. If you can do this with some stealth, 3 divisions should be enough, so I would want to take 5 divisions with a lot of support elements. It's a very large operation but if it succeeds you will have India at hand. The reinforcements will have to get by your surface combat fleets and air both at Socotra and Karachi( Socotra starts as a size 2 airbase.) Most likely your opponent will rush most of his forces toward Karachi to evict you and you can then land 5 more divisions around Calcutta to take the important factories and such in that area. As you push down the coast from Karachi you will limit any places he can land either troops or supplies from Cape Town. The main ideas are to have two major landing areas, restrict what he can do with his reinforcements, take much of the supply producing areas from him, and finally systematically eliminate his troops. If done early, he will have very limited air power and your air force should reign supreme.

Anyway, that is a rough outline of how I would proceed in taking India. I'll wait for Nemo to blast a hole or two into it. [:D]
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”