precursors supplies ore and oil

Advanced Tactics is a versatile turn-based strategy system that gives gamers the chance to wage almost any battle in any time period. The initial release focuses on World War II and includes a number of historical scenarios as well as a full editor! This forum supports both the original Advanced Tactics and the new and improved Advanced Tactics: Gold Edition.

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freeboy
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precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by freeboy »

is there going to be some explaintion of the use of theses
do I need to train the pilots?
can hulls and pilots stay in a pool till I start building ships and planes?
I am having asome challenge getting my head around the system, currently playing waw for gold, solo all human.. seems to work just not sure how to run the economic model.
I readthe manual, and honestly reread it and was not at all clear how this works..
thanks guys.. perhaps one of the testers can do a faq aboutthis aspect like the above faq primer for supplies
thanks again.. intersting game
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Tac2i
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Tac2i »

Sound like you are playing a custom scenario included in ATG. Most if not all custom scenarios have had their default attributes changed and new features added. The ATG manual does not cover these changes. I've not looked at this scenario but hopefully the designer that created it included some description of the changes and/or included a web link to a site that does.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by 82ndtrooper »

I think Tom Weber is making a wiki for this scenario, But i am not sure. I cant find the link to it at the moment.

no you dont have to train the pilots just build them ( this is the same as training them)

yes all precursors can be stockpiled. in fact its good to always  have some in reserve.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

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freeboy
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by freeboy »

ok.. so I am even more confused.. just re read everything..
there is fuel oil and supplies...
is this just in WAW scenarios or do all scenaios use fuel and oil?
andwhat is the need for oil, if fuel is produced at the same time as supplies.. or is this just in waw?
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Tac2i
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Tac2i »

Perhaps the best way to explain this is to state that besides being a great game, AT/ATG is also a wargame construction kit. Designers have used the editor to creates new and/or modified games with the included editor. Those custom games can have a very different set of functions and can even have new ones.

All standard random games created with the random game generator have oil and raw. Supplies (basically food, ammo, etc.) is produced in your cities. Oil and raw are global pools kept track of in the top info bar of the game. Oil is consumed when motorized units move. Raw is consumed when things requiring steel in their construction are built.

I can't address any specific customized scenario as I primarily play only random games.
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freeboy
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by freeboy »

ok looking at the game and playing waw, seems like there is no oil.. hopefullythis will become clear.. feeling a lot of the noobiness of this [:-]
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by AZKGungHo »

How about a tutorial on how the oil/ore/supply rules work in the random scenarios? I'm confused, and no matter what I do I can't seem to get enough fuel to my troops.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Tac2i »

@AZ Gung Ho: re oil/ore -- They exist as global resource pools. Basically, you either have some or you don't. As motorized units move, they consume oil. As units requiring steel are built, they consume ore. Early in a random game you don't have much oil or ore capacity. Once you consume your initial reserves, you'll have to begin to upgrade your oil wells and ore (raw) hexes. There are three levels:  I, II, and III. You can also capture enemy resource hexes and use them. Captured enemy cities can produce limited amounts of "recycled" oil and raw. Your own cities can be set to produced some oil and raw as well. Note that trains don't consume oil, they use coal which is for game purposes considered unlimited. Early in the game and perhaps even in later stages make use of horses to tow artillery (heavy artillery requires motorized transport) and increase the mobility of some of your troops.

See this post for some additional information: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2756292. Post #5 contain a simplified explanation of supply.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by MemoryLeak »

Well... I know this is going to sound like whining but this is a supply game not a war game. I can not figure out the many, many little data fields in the many, many windows that have to do with supply and demand. I do not see any obvious relationship between the in and out and sup cons and this and that. And i played the tutorials and read the pathetic game manual. They should be ashamed calling that an instruction manual. I read some supply tips but there is just too many references points in the game that really have no obvious connection. Very complicated and too much work.

And trying to connnect all of this with movement and oil and Ap's and staff. Give me a break. All of that stuff should be automatic and abstracted.
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Rosseau
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Rosseau »

I feel like I'm learning WitE all over again. Well, not quite. But I agree about the City/Production center/Hq/Unit/Subunits/Trucks/Transfer/Strat Transfer/Global assets/supply/political points, etc. I'm pretty good with the editor, so am going to wind up cheating a bit on this stuff so I can concentrate on the combat.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by tweber »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

is there going to be some explaintion of the use of theses
do I need to train the pilots?
can hulls and pilots stay in a pool till I start building ships and planes?
I am having asome challenge getting my head around the system, currently playing waw for gold, solo all human.. seems to work just not sure how to run the economic model.
I readthe manual, and honestly reread it and was not at all clear how this works..
thanks guys.. perhaps one of the testers can do a faq aboutthis aspect like the above faq primer for supplies
thanks again.. intersting game

The random game uses two variables - raw and oil as regime variables. Raw is needed to build anything other than infantry. Oil is needed to effectively move and fights vehicles, planes and ships. Both are built instantly if you have the right type of production centers.

I developed the WAW series at the same time the random game was being developed and made things slightly more complex. Key differences are:

- You need 'Steel' to produce artillery and tanks, 'Engines' to produce vehicles and planes, 'Pilots' to produce planes (in addition on engines), 'Specialists' to produce staff, engineers and elite troops (paras) and 'Hulls' to produce ships.
- When you build these things, it takes up to 5 turns (10 for hulls) from the time you construct these precursors until the time they are ready to be used to contruct units. My goal was to simulate gearing limits / delays in production.
- Fuel is similar to Oil. Fuel is built every time supply is built. Note there is no reason Fuel was named differently from Oil except that these scenarios (WAW and the random game) were developed in parallel.

Impact on the WAW game is that you have to plan things a bit more carefully. Major offensives take alot of fuel so you have to be ready for this. You also have to time your builds more carefully - e.g., if you plan to invade France in May 1940 - you have to think about stockpiling enough precursors before hand to have the army ready on time.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Rosseau »

In reading more of the posts, I see these changes will create a more challenging and interesting game. I'm just to lazy today to learn them all. Good job!
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by freeboy »

well I am playing both sides and the game, waw is interesting. I NEVER play random games, so the gold release is a little useless to me until we get som emore gold scens, still I am glad I mad et hepurchase and am impressd with the game to date, jsut need to play some more waw with tom..
 
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by Tac2i »

@MemoryLeak: It is not whining, just expressing your frustration. Let me try to help. I'm not a high detail kind of guy either and ATG gives you the ability to see a lot of detail if you want to view it. Ignore it... you don't need it to have fun. If you haven't looked over my posts titled ATG: Key Concepts and Tips and the one titled Random Game Highlights let me suggest they may be of some help. Also see my ATG: Quick Reference Guide.

Just remember that logistics (supply) is a vital part of any war. Some games abstract it away, some go into great detail (yuck!) and some like ATG find a nice balance. All you have to remember is to produce enough and the amount needed grows as your army does. Supply range (250APs) usually isn't a problem unless you aren't extending your rail lines and/or you send your units out into swamps, across unbridged rivers and through the forests.

Oil/Raw(ore): I spoke about that in an earlier post in this thread so I won't cover that again.

Please PM me if there is anything additional I can do (or post further here). I want you to enjoy this very good game.

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ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

Well... I know this is going to sound like whining but this is a supply game not a war game. I can not figure out the many, many little data fields in the many, many windows that have to do with supply and demand. I do not see any obvious relationship between the in and out and sup cons and this and that. And i played the tutorials and read the pathetic game manual. They should be ashamed calling that an instruction manual. I read some supply tips but there is just too many references points in the game that really have no obvious connection. Very complicated and too much work.

And trying to connnect all of this with movement and oil and Ap's and staff. Give me a break. All of that stuff should be automatic and abstracted.
Another one for the shelf.
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kvob
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by kvob »

Firstly, let me qualify my following statements by saying that I am a terrible wargamer(but for some reason, still enjoy playing). I always play against the AI and I am certainly no genius.

When I first started playing ATG, I felt a little overwhelmed. I skimmed the manual and the started a random game against the AI. I kept restarting games - trying each time to pick up another nuance of the system every time, and flicking through the manual when I felt the need. Slowly and gradually, I started to grasp the significance (and how I should use or conserve) the stocks of oil and ore. I did the same with the supply system and the HQ command systems.

After getting a kicking many times from the AI, I am starting to hold my own....not only that, after many games of defending followed by inevitable defeat (and much shouting and swearing at the PC), I am ready in my latest attempt to launch a major offensive. Victory is in sight. The more I learn, the more I enjoy.

What I'm really trying to say is to take little bites of the game and persevere. I guarantee that, if I can begin to grasp it, there is hope for others.[:)]
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by CSO_Talorgan »

ORIGINAL: Webizen

Supply range (250APs) ...

Can that be modded too?

... and what about the number of HQs in a chain?
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by tweber »

ORIGINAL: CSO_Talorgan

ORIGINAL: Webizen

Supply range (250APs) ...

Can that be modded too?

... and what about the number of HQs in a chain?

Yes and Yes.

The file used for the random game is called generic.at2. If you edit this file, your random game will me editted. Before you do this, I would suggest saving the file with a name like generic(original).at2. This way, if you make a mistake, you can always start over.

The supply range and the number of HGs are set by rulevars (rule variables). To change rule variables -

(1) enter the editor; (2) click on settings; (3) click on rule variables.

Max number of HQ in a chain is rule var 304 under the 'HQ Power' category in rule variables.

Supply range is rule var 3 under "Movement Types and Ranges". Note that you can also set the supply penalty which is the range that 75%, 50% and 25% of supply is deliveried by rule vars 51-53 under the "Supply" rule var category.

Send me a pm if you are still stuck.
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RE: precursors supplies ore and oil

Post by CSO_Talorgan »

That's great thanks!
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