Lack of an editor

[WaltE1965]

I agree with many here that the lack of an editor for modding this game and future games like it will certainly kill its ability to get much or any market appeal. If I had used common sense today and looked at the forums before buying this game today, I would not have bought it. I will certainly think twice before buying any others from Matrix, if they do not have at least a scenario editor, like WitP / WitP:AE has. I own those a very much enjoy them and play them all the time. Do not think I will be doing the same with this game though.[:-][>:]

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: WaltE1965

I agree with many here that the lack of an editor for modding this game and future games like it will certainly kill its ability to get much or any market appeal. If I had used common sense today and looked at the forums before buying this game today, I would not have bought it. I will certainly think twice before buying any others from Matrix, if they do not have at least a scenario editor, like WitP / WitP:AE has. I own those a very much enjoy them and play them all the time. Do not think I will be doing the same with this game though.[:-][>:]

This has been discussed quite a bit on the forum. The reason an editor is not included is due to the desgin of the original game engine. So much of the data is hard coded that you cannot simply jump in and change things like you can in AE which has all the relevant data in databases seperate from the .exe file. If it was possible to include an editor the designers would have done so.

As for not buying any Matrix games because it does not have an editor....Hmmm, not really sure what you are on about there. The vast majority of games on the market place do not include an editor.

In any case I am sorry you are disappointed. I have owned the original and also the Matrix release and thoroughly enjoyed both. Your quite correct though, anyone interested in ANY game should check out the forums and talk to the guys who own and play it before they decide if the purchase is right for them.

[JeffroK]

A vote for Walt, maybe WITP or OAW spoiled us but the ability to make changes to the database has provided extra life to games.

Rather than just a rehash of the original game engine, more should have been invested by Matrix into improving it to more modern standards.

I may not agree with not buying any Matrix games without an editor, but will not buy any more rehashes of 1990's games.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hi,
i own the original BTR and BOB,

i had bought this game in the first second, but without editor i have zero interest in it.
Why?
cause i want to change things (more allied production if the axis player do better, more what-if-scenarios (with earlier readydates for new planes for both sides)

So i get the "old" game in better way, but with some/many old problems.
With an editor, i can try out some things.
Here i think only about
Production/daily planes
weapon values
plane dates (say, more bombing load, longer fligth time)
and historical production dates....
maybe some changes in the "new pilots experience" for certain years

For the old BTR this existed (i had lost the excel-list) and it is strictly forbidden for players to do it on its own (some here seem to have the capability).

So untill this will be changed i just read the aar´s....

I know the guys here did a great job, but it still has no editor... sadly

[Augenstein]

Unfortunately I have to agree here with Adnan. Because of the lack of editor my playing time with this game has been extremely scarse. I hope this can be adressed, since the was an editor for the original game it shouldnt be impossible to create, hell, I'd even pay for one.

At the moment I simpy have no interest in playing this game without being able to edit anything..

[Dobey455]

Sigh,<again>

The lack of an editor was not an inside joke by the creators.

There has been a great deal of discussion of this and the simple reality is, that as most of the data is contained within the .exe file, the only way to edit this is with a hex editor.
Hex editing the .exe is a blatant violation of the licence agreement between the customer and matrix games and, I would assume, also of any agreement between Gary Grigsby and Matrix as it is considered a form of reverse engineering of the source code.

There was very serious discussion with Matrix by one of the users on this board several months to see if they could come up with some kind of "limited" editor that would be considered acceptable, I haven't seen any talk of this for quite some time, so I can only assume it fell through.

I think those posts were in this sub-forum if you want to search for them.

For the record the editor for the original game was also a hex-editor and was also in breach of the licence agreement. I suspect that there are users out there with an editor, but if so, I doubt they would be silly enough to talk about it on the distributors own boards.

[otisabuser2]

One wonders how all those other games, that come packaged with editors get around all those technical licence restrictions ?

Most of the items that Adnan listed ( weapon values, plane dates, bomb load, endurance and pilot experience ) are not hidden in the game Exe.

I said before, i really think matrix missed a trick here. I still play some other old games ( Rome Total War, and Hearts of Iron I ) , because they have been given a breath of new life by a dedicated group of enthusiasts who produce their own Mods and keep interest going.

Within a few days of release this game had a breif flurry of willing volunteers who produced maps and Mods. The Forum looked quite lively. Now everyone is on hold while we wait for the next patch.

If creativity had been allowed to flourish, who knows what Mods and scenarios we could have had now ?

Goes off deaming of Operation Husky, Dieppe, Malta, "what if the LW had Zeros ?", reverse Battle of Britain with Whitleys, Hampdens and Stirlings attacking UK.......

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

One wonders how all those other games, that come packaged with editors get around all those technical licence restrictions ?

Because newer engines place the data into seperate databases rather than within the .exe

Most of the items that Adnan listed ( weapon values, plane dates, bomb load, endurance and pilot experience ) are not hidden in the game Exe.

In EDTBTR they most certainly are.

It is an older form of engine. In WITP, for example, the design is newer and makes use of data in seperate DB files.

I said before, i really think matrix missed a trick here. I still play some other old games ( Rome Total War, and Hearts of Iron I ) , because they have been given a breath of new life by a dedicated group of enthusiasts who produce their own Mods and keep interest going.

Within a few days of release this game had a breif flurry of willing volunteers who produced maps and Mods. The Forum looked quite lively. Now everyone is on hold while we wait for the next patch.

If creativity had been allowed to flourish, who knows what Mods and scenarios we could have had now ?

Goes off deaming of Operation Husky, Dieppe, Malta, "what if the LW had Zeros ?", reverse Battle of Britain with Whitleys, Hampdens and Stirlings attacking UK.......

wishing there was an editor is fair enough, but things are the way they are, people still insist on believing that there is not an editor because the designs just don't feel like creating one.
Its an older game, this is one of the limitations.

[otisabuser2]

Hi Dobey,

are we talking about the same point ? Those values I listed ( weapon values, plane dates, bomb load, endurance and pilot experience ) are NOT hidden in the game .exe file. They are in a seperate folder.

The issue with any attempt at hex editing, appart from the legal issues, is that some game data is changed later by the .exe. So what seems like a simple change may end up causng issues later on.

There was an editor for the old game. There was an editor for this game. Both designed by people who were players ( at the time ) not Matrix staff.

My point being that if you take away some of the restrictions, then creativity would flourish, without Matrix needing to spend any money or time. Instead of people whinging to HardSarge and Harley etc about when the new patch is coming. We could instead direct those posters to various Modding tasks, like research or Art drawing.

[PizzaDeOveja]

[font="Tahoma"]While it is obvious that an editor would be nice I think that nobody can seriously state that the lack of it is what "cripples" this game, with all the scenarios and a decade of real time long campaign... It is obviously just stated that way to try to make it a more important point than it really is.

I think it is obvious to all of us that what really turns people (well the hardcore wargamin gamers comunity) down about this game is the appalling DOS interface which can only be explained if the purpose of it was precisely to make it unplayable for 99% of the gaming community..a kind of ASL for board games in which precisely the thing about it was that it was so needlessly complicated that that in itself offered value for the few hardcore 200 IQ people that did manage to play it and understand how it worked, I mean, they even made some t-shirts that said something like "hey! I play squad leader!".

But eventually you manage to muddle tru the interface and after planing some ultra cool bombing missions well...it is pretty cool.

But when you play the axis, not only you do have to fight against the interface...the way production is handled is just retardedly complicated. People needs to do Excels and VBR programing to plan their production![&:][&:][&:][&:][&:]

Anyways...I'm addicted to BTR [&o] so I wont complaint...any more that is[:D] [/font]

[harley]

ORIGINAL: PizzaDeOveja

[font="Tahoma"]
But when you play the axis, not only you do have to fight against the interface...the way production is handled is just retardedly complicated. People needs to do Excels and VBR programing to plan their production![&:][&:][&:][&:][&:]

Anyways...I'm addicted to BTR [&o] so I wont complaint...any more that is[:D] [/font]

At least I was able to do something with Production, it's way slicker now, but not quite ready...