Leon Degrelle

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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harrmonica
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by harrmonica »

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.

i'll quote you from earlier: I read degrelle's book as a "war"book not a political testiment

so which is it? did you start this thread to talk about the military aspects of WWII or political ones, because now i am confused.
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by harrmonica »

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: Mynok
It highly important to understand the thought processes behind great evil so that one may recognize it in the future. That doesn't necessarily mean one has to read books that are very disturbing to do so, but sometimes it can be clarifying.

That's the real purpose I see in preserving such books. Human malevolence and rationalization of it is a huge part of history, and such writings help us understand it and it's many varied manifestations better.

The real danger of some "books" lies in simple minds reading them without a wiser voice putting them in a context and pointing out darker aspects of their lecture. For example how - in this case - nazi ideology tried and still tries to lead humanity down the path to barbarism.

Simple minds reading, watching and listening to dangerous stuff are too easily seduced and exploited by clever manipulation. No wonder why ill-educated jobless kids are prime targets for neo-nazi agitators. That's why no uncommented editions of "Mein Kampf" and other hate brainware should be allowed to circulate. I definitly am no fan of limitless freedom of expression, it's one aspect of US legislation I can't admire.

By the way I hope this thread gets locked rather sooner than later. WitE was bound to attract neo-nazi elements (barkorn45 at the very least scratches the limits there, whyalterhistory with his hitler portrait is a clear case), but this forum should offer no platform for them. Let's discuss the game here, not politics...

whilst i won't go so far as to say lock the thread, i agree that espousing medieval ideologies has no place in a gaming forum, thinly veiled as his attempts were...
rchora
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by rchora »

Well if I can give my humble opinion I guess the type of man this game attracts have more in common than not. I'm certain most of us read military history books by the score, have been playing similar games for a long time, and have some kind of military experience.

Also from my experience in other forums, this kind of games appeals more to the European player than console gaming for instance. Europeans are more present in strategy game forums than in other game forums.

Another thing I have noticed over the years in these kind of forums is that politics are always, kind of present, people seem about to burst their political views this kind of forums at every opportunity, at every excuse...Again I don't know why, but to me it has always looked that way...I have my suspicions but i'll keep them to myself as to why it may be...

This said we are still politically divided as always, its a fact. Not every die hard Nazi died without children, not every communist, fascist etc, and well not every democrat died without children, we are all here I'm sure.

However and in conclusion, I truly believe that politics are best left outside these forums, as there are many other forums where we can talk politics but only a few where we can talk about this game...

Talking about Degrelle outside the scope of the game includes talking about his book I believe, which I have read and its very politicized...He wrote that book without refraining his political views, therefore it seems very difficult to keep the conversation within the bounds of Wite, if we talk about Degrelle and his books here.

We may try but I'm sure it will get us nowhere.

Locking threads because of books is a dangerous precedent. I like military books, including biographies, and especially I like unit histories, maybe that's why I keep playing ww2 strategy games. These books can help us, not only enjoying a game but detecting little bugs in the order of battle, or in a given piece of equipment. Or even, in a more controversial note...to decide if SS men were indeed so much better than the average soldier...How many threads have I seen over the years in game forums because of the way elite/guard units should be represented in a given game? And always politics seems to always be there...in the sidelines, about to burst into a discussion...

Please excuse my english, I feel like a child speaking in English...But still I hope I've, at least, managed to make enough sense to convey my opinion to all.
JAMiAM
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot

Please excuse my english, I feel like a child speaking in English...But still I hope I've, at least, managed to make enough sense to convey my opinion to all.
Very well, in fact, and quite eloquently, I might add. More children should speak thusly...[:)]
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PyleDriver
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by PyleDriver »

Your English as well as your points are outstanding...
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Mynok
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Mynok »

ORIGINAL: Mehring

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You don't have to grasp cause. Indeed that's impossible. Even the perpretrator often doesn't know why he did what he did.

What you will find are patterns of thinking, and those can be discernable and recognizable elsewhere.
What you are saying is that the world is not knowable, but we may know our perceptions of it. And you are saying this whether you know it or not. Similarly, because someone may not know what motivates them in no way rules out someone else knowing it. It's a very common occurence, however peevish that might be for whoever understands themself less than someone else does.

People see patterns everywhere, including where none exist by design or intent. Da Vinci was the first to comment on this I believe. What you are then saying, is that you can impose a meaning on phenomena of your own fancy and call it truth. But the pattern may exist only in your perception or have a completely different content from the one you imagine.

Your view is anti-science and anti-knowledge and is refuted by the entire passage of history.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. What I'm saying is that the human heart, from which motivation springs, is unknowable and deceitful...by the owner no less than others.

Far from being anti-science, I would contend science and logic helps us understand these things because it imposes rules upon our otherwise faulty observations, which can then guide us to discerning patterns. It cannot bring us to Truth, but it can bring us to a reasoned and supportable perspective. These perspectives can then shed light upon similar patterns in different contexts.

I think we radically disagree in our epistemology, so perhaps there's little point in furthering this discussion.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
Reconvet
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Reconvet »

ORIGINAL: Pirx the Pilot
Well if I can give my humble opinion I guess the type of man this game attracts have more in common than not. I'm certain most of us read military history books by the score, have been playing similar games for a long time, and have some kind of military experience.

Of course those of us attracted by this kind of game have things in common. Problem with this thread is that it clearly was opened by a guy trying to start a political discussion to get a platform for his world view, and not to discuss the game. He "knows that the book author is an unrepentant nazi", yet in the same sentence he glorifies him. In another post he presents "Mein Kampf" as being a blueprint for a better world. What's next? An article published by Mengele on his "studies" in concentration camps? But of course the thread opener will question the existence of such camps...

Lock up this thread please!


The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.

rchora
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by rchora »

I think so too, I have to agree with you. Unless the forum member who created the thread comes up with a better explanation, I have to agree with your view, its hard not to see the issue by that perspective.
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Mehring »

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Wrong, wrong, wrong. What I'm saying is that the human heart, from which motivation springs, is unknowable and deceitful...by the owner no less than others.

Far from being anti-science, I would contend science and logic helps us understand these things because it imposes rules upon our otherwise faulty observations, which can then guide us to discerning patterns. It cannot bring us to Truth, but it can bring us to a reasoned and supportable perspective. These perspectives can then shed light upon similar patterns in different contexts.

I think we radically disagree in our epistemology, so perhaps there's little point in furthering this discussion.
Up to you. Materialism and metaphysics don't mix but understanding has advanced through conflict between the two, even if not for all the individuals involved in the conflict.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
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Lrfss
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Lrfss »

I would like to know if forced labor is included in my German production efforts and do they increase say up to around early 1944 assuming I capture more manpower centers and like wise decrease if I lose them [&:]
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Jeffrey H. »

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

I would like to know if forced labor is included in my German production efforts and do they increase say up to around early 1944 assuming I capture more manpower centers and like wise decrease if I lose them [&:]

Here we go again.
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by fbs »

ORIGINAL: Lrfss

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.

Probably one of the more difficult books to finish that I've read! So much is so boring! However a must read for anyone that desires to have a clue about the mind set of the man and as you stated the blueprint of his desired future, etc.


Haha, I saw on TV sometime ago a couple of ladies that belonged to Hitler's staff in the Wolfsschanze (they took notes or something), saying that on the daily meetings with the generals to review the situation, everything was very interesting and exciting; but when "The Boss" started his monologues with pastry in the afternoon or went through his ramblings during dinner, they were bored to death. They said they even had a rotation for staying with "The Boss" during pastry time :-)
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Lrfss
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Lrfss »

ORIGINAL: fbs
ORIGINAL: Lrfss

ORIGINAL: barkorn45

If more people had read Mein Kampf as a blueprint for the future{which it was}instead of some form of autobiography the world might be a far different maybe better place.

Probably one of the more difficult books to finish that I've read! So much is so boring! However a must read for anyone that desires to have a clue about the mind set of the man and as you stated the blueprint of his desired future, etc.

Haha, I saw on TV sometime ago a couple of ladies that belonged to Hitler's staff in the Wolfsschanze (they took notes or something), saying that on the daily meetings with the generals to review the situation, everything was very interesting and exciting; but when "The Boss" started his monologues with pastry in the afternoon or went through his ramblings during dinner, they were bored to death. They said they even had a rotation for staying with "The Boss" during pastry time :-)

Funny you mention this, I met long ago one of Hitler's secretaries "Trudy" I cant recall her last name though and she signed her book to me (Voices from the bunker...IIRC?), etc. Anyway, she stated that Hitler was extremely boring most of the time in the later years as he was pre-occupied with the pending fate of the nation and rambled on about things of very little importance considering all that was taking place at the time...
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by mmarquo »

"I would like to know if forced labor is included in my German production efforts and do they increase say up to around early 1944 assuming I capture more manpower centers and like wise decrease if I lose them"

Are you being serious or sarcastic?
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by cookie monster »

It's a very good question[:D][:D]

I wouldn't have thought so, commercially released games try to be politically correct.
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Mazzah »

I agree keep politics and your wife for that matter waaay out of the sauna!
Ask me and i will elaborate.
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SgtKachalin
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by SgtKachalin »

ORIGINAL: Lrfss
I would like to know if forced labor is included...

Pick an answer. Then ask yourself "How would you know?"

I doubt very much the model worked from bottom to top, as in "we have this many men who can lift 50kg, so they can carry this many bogies of the proper size for a MK III, and they can move this fast, so the factory produces this many wheel assemblies..." [:D] You can see the problem. No, the model probably works from top to bottom. They probably looked at historical output, divided that by the factories/locations involved and figured what each produced. Derive an abstracted "manpower" figure for each, throw in abstracted "resources" (oil, metals, etc) and voila, the production system.

So pick whichever answer floats your boat.
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by PyleDriver »

Hum clever point, never thunk of that one...
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by PeeDeeAitch »

ORIGINAL: Sgt Barker
So pick whichever answer floats your boat.

I pick "magic" as my answer.
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Lrfss
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RE: Leon Degrelle

Post by Lrfss »

ORIGINAL: Sgt Barker
ORIGINAL: Lrfss
I would like to know if forced labor is included...

Pick an answer. Then ask yourself "How would you know?"

I doubt very much the model worked from bottom to top, as in "we have this many men who can lift 50kg, so they can carry this many bogies of the proper size for a MK III, and they can move this fast, so the factory produces this many wheel assemblies..." [:D] You can see the problem. No, the model probably works from top to bottom. They probably looked at historical output, divided that by the factories/locations involved and figured what each produced. Derive an abstracted "manpower" figure for each, throw in abstracted "resources" (oil, metals, etc) and voila, the production system.

So pick whichever answer floats your boat.

Thanks for that thought, however this is a reasoanble question based on fact is it not?

In an effort to have the Sim be the best considering to the "Man" I vote that RHG and such can not be disbanded... This is bigger than some may think. Talk about gamey things... No way period that this would be possible at all...

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