Reread Glantz

[mmarquo]

3 months of playing WITE has caused me to reinvigoate my long historical interest in the WITE. I have perhaps 20 some odd books on the subject, and have read each 2 or 3 times in the last 30 years. I am currently rereading Glanz's, "When Titans Clashed," in the context playing WITE, and of the discussions on the forum about the 1941- 42 timelines and the blizzard. I can't help but get the feeling that the Axis was incredibly lucky, took chances that a human gamer will never do in a game, and was constrained by higher C & C structure that was inflexibly paralyzed by fear and distrust of the Hitler. The Soviet C & C was also inflexibly paralyzed by fear, inexperience and adherence to doctrines which made little sense; the Soviet line commanders did things which a human gamer will never do.

1. Gamers complain about the Soviet RR capability, however: "During 1918 and 1919, V.I. Lenin and and his commissar for military affairs, L.D. Trotsky, used the railroad lines to shuttle their limited reserves from place to place, staving off defeat time after time. This became known as echelon war, in which large forces were shifted by railroad (echelon) to reinforce successivley threatened fronts." The use of strategic reserves, echelon and railroad mvt was integral to Soviet strategy; the game is realistic in this regard.

2. In reference to the Minsk Pocket: "Even in this first fantastic encirclement, where the Germans destroyed or swallowed up over 417,000 Soviet soldiers, there were flaws in the German victory. As usual, they found it very difficult to assemble sufficient forces to actually seal off the encircled Soviets, and thus large numbers of soldiers escaped, leaving their heavy equipment behind." The game accuralety portrays these flaws.

3. By mid October after Kalini and Kaluga fell, "In retrospect the German forces had gone as far as possible for 1941 and needed to go into winter quarters." And consider these facts:

"Only one third of all motor vehicles were still operational, and divisions were at one-third to one-half strength."

"In late October, Guederian had concentrated most of his remaining tanks into one brigade, commanded by Colonel Eberbach, commander of the weakened 4th Panzer Division. By mid-November, this brigade had only 50 tanks left, but it was the spearhead for the XXIV Panzer Corps and, in effect, for the entire army."

So even before the Soviet conteroffensive the TOE was at 1/3 -1/2 and AGC had 50 tanks....only Hilter's threats stopped a rout all the way back to Germany; and standing fast in these blizzard circumstances should cause grievous losses. I am not convinced that the blizzard is unrealistic: gamers are mesmerized and attempt to geographically overexploit the summer and fall offensives, they fail to bag and destroy enough Soviet forces, and often end the fall offensive at low TOE. It is correct that the Axis player often finishes the fall with a TOE which is high - but that is because most Axis players would not push their forces to the extent that OKH did. To mitigate losses, the Axis should really fall back and give up much territory - any thing else should cause the huge losses we see.

Enjoy the weekend.

Marquo [:)]

[Commanderski]

I agree that overall (with the exception of a few minor known bugs they are working on) the game is more accurate than most people realize. I read Glantz's Barbarossa Derailed and it was like reading an AAR on the game.

[Infanteer]

I agree with you Marquo. As an Canadian Infantry Officer, we routinely work in "the blizzard" - conditions of -30 to -40 degree (celcius) weather. It is harsh and 80% of your effort is just staying alive; if you are not prepared (as the Germans weren't at first) the results will be devastating as the quotations you put up show. The effects of the winter seem fair for this game.

You speak of political decisions - this is perhaps one thing the game could "add" for more of an experience. In the first weeks of the German offensive, Stalin ordered counterattacks along the entire front. Hitler's "No Step Back" policy is another one. Perhaps some addtional rules which impose certain conditions/factors on each force would be useful. These could be turned on/off like the random-weather. IE: German units cannot move west during the blizzard.

Finally, the old Norm Kroger OOW News Ticker at the start of every turn was nice - if only to show you that the military game of moving little boxes with numbers around is related to real political situations (Clausewitz 101). Something like that in this game would be handy - "Russian Winter hits - worst weather in 100 years! (First winter rules in effect!)" or "Leningrad falls" or "Zhukov is shot".

[runyan99]

I think gamers have a big misconception regarding the blizzard and the famous 'no fall back' order of Hitler. In fact the Germans didn't attempt to hold fast at all, and in many places fell back maybe 150 miles between December and April. I suspect gamers should be attempting the same thing.

[mmarquo]

Interesting point: Hilter forbade further "major withdrawals" in mid-December (3rd blizzard turn) and gave the "Standfast Order" early January (5th or 6th blizzard turn). They did crowd into cities to try to hold out; this stupidity almost caused an enormous pocket at Rzhev - Stalin could have bagged AGC but decided to bypass surrounded units and go on a general offensive...
 
I think that if the developers lessen the blizzard effects then there is a good chance of an enormous, antihistorical advantage; hey, the proof is historical: despite all the apparent clumbsiness and "irrational" military behavior on every level, the Soviets decimated the Wehrmacht - somebody knew what he/she was doing  [&o]
 
 
Marquo 

[Zort]

I love this argument.  [:)] I don't disagree that the germans should be falling back but not 150 miles across the whole front.  Just look at Moscow in game terms I think the germans fell back about 4 hexes in real life.  Leningrad they fell back what 1 hex in game terms. So the germans shouldn't have to fall back 15 hexes across the entire front.  In my current game the soviets don't have the capability to attack across the entire front so the previous patch seemed to help.  What needs to be to be addressed is the ability for the germans to recover in 42 to be able to launch an offensive, being a limited one, at all in 42.  Presently the soviet has ample time to construct 4-5 hex deep lvl 3+ forts before the germans can assault.  So will see what the next patch does to mitigate the rows of forts.

[Aurelian]

For a great many, if it isn't what is usually a self serving memoir by some German general, it isn't right.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Interesting point: Hilter forbade further "major withdrawals" in mid-December (3rd blizzard turn) and gave the "Standfast Order" early January (5th or 6th blizzard turn). They did crowd into cities to try to hold out; this stupidity almost caused an enormous pocket at Rzhev - Stalin could have bagged AGC but decided to bypass surrounded units and go on a general offensive...

I think that if the developers lessen the blizzard effects then there is a good chance of an enormous, antihistorical advantage; hey, the proof is historical: despite all the apparent clumbsiness and "irrational" military behavior on every level, the Soviets decimated the Wehrmacht - somebody knew what he/she was doing  [&o]


Marquo 

I'm sure the Army Group Center generals screamed "This is broken!!!"

They probably wished somebody told the Sovs that they couldn't do what they did. Not realistic.

[Zort]

Well this is a game.  How to make the game playable by both sides is the trick.  So within some historical realistic parameters the game needs to be "balanced" so both sides have fun.  If one side can win in the first 30 turns of a 200+ turn game then why make it.  

[mmarquo]

"Just look at Moscow in game terms I think the germans fell back about 4 hexes in real life."



Zort,



a. The 27 Army advanced from in front of Ostashkov to Demidov which is 12 game hexes

b. The Western Front advanced from Narofominsk to Vyazma which is 9 game hexes

c. The 38th Army advanced from hex 95,40 NW of Rzhev to jusy NE of Durova which is 9 hexes.



No, the Axis got it's ass kicked backwards 120 + miles in some sectors (10 miles to the hex).



Marquo

[mmarquo]

Here is map so you can count hexes if you want.

Marquo [:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

This is slightly off-topic - since it's not really about Barbarossa - but I pretty much felt like the OP. I've been re-reading both Glantz's Stumbling Colossus/Colossus Reborn twin works and E. Mawdsley's "Thunder In The East" and I must say that WiTE is indeed a incredibly faithful simulation to the works of those two authors. Western historiography, especially during the Cold War, took at face value German perspectives conveyed by all the memories published after the war. It's almost proven that there was a conspiracy, under the direction of Manstein - the great tactician - to "sell" to the Western victors a much more positive image of the conduct of the war. It also provided with a nice tale, which fit too well the attitudes and outlooks of Western countries towards the Soviet Union and its satellites.

[Zort]

I am not saying the axis didn't get their butts kicked.  And I agreed with you that they were pushed back far in SOME sectors but not the entire front.  I will say it again, the germans even after getting kicked should be able to launch an offensive in 42, per last patch no way that was going to be done.  In front of leningrad the axis didn't retreat 100 miles but it will happen now.  I think the last patch has improved the game a lot.  Like I said my opponent couldn't attack everywhere so has to limit his offense to the area he has strong enough troops.  Like it should be.

[Zort]

And since you like pictures here is the 42 scenario start at moscow. I have ended up there in the CG41 scenario and pushed back to Smolensk. But didn't happen in real life, again this is game.

[mmarquo]

I do not understand your post - in the picture you are 5 hexes east of Vyazma, but the April 1942 line on the map is much further to the west - what you have psoted from your game is much better for the Axis than historical. [&:]

[Mynok]

a. The 27 Army advanced from in front of Ostashkov to Demidov which is 12 game hexes

b. The Western Front advanced from Narofominsk to Vyazma which is 9 game hexes

c. The 38th Army advanced from hex 95,40 NW of Rzhev to jusy NE of Durova which is 9 hexes.

Let's be careful to understand that where the Soviets started from was not necessarily where the Germans had gotten to. German "control" of their farthest advances was minimal at best.

[Zort]

Marquo, that is the start of the gc 42 scenario, thought I said that.  The germans weren't pushed 120 miles from the gates of moscow.  So I say again, I agree with you, the germans were pushed back, some places really far, some places not as far, and some places not much at all.  So saying that the game (I am assuming you meant pre 1.03 patch) blizzard was working correctly and would result in a german 42 offensive doesn't make sense.  So once again I reiterate the game needs to be balanced so both sides can have fun. 

So just to be clear, I agree the germans suffered in the winter of 41/42.  In the game the germans need to trade space so they don't die.  The designers are working on game balancing so both sides can have fun.  So what are we discussing?  None of us want either side to win in the first 30 turns. 

[Q-Ball]

V. 1.04 which is being tested is going to fix several balance issues on both sides.

The Blizzard is currently as harsh as a it is, because the Germans need to be knocked back in terms of strength; they were entering the Blizzard much stronger than historical. The Blizzard knocks them back in that regard.

The problem is that the Soviets were also entering Blizzard much too strong, but there wasn't an equivalent correction. As a result, PBEM after PBEM was showing a total lack of ability of the Germans to launch a credible offensive in 1942.

We have yet to see an AAR in 1.03 where the Germans have launched a credible 1942 offensive.

Glantz's book "When Titans Clahsed" is excellent, and does a good job painting the 1941 Winter Offensive Picture. There were intial big advances against AGC, an AGC that was dangerously overextended entering Winter. Starting on pg 91, Glantz gives an excellent account of the frustrations elsehwere, and lack of progress when the offensive was widened to the entire front. Ideally, the engine would model this by limiting Soviet supplies in the Winter Offensive, because historically they were NOT able to push the Germans back all along the line. The Germans launched several successful counterattacks, including the isolation of 2nd Shock Army. None of this is currently possible in current winter rules.

The Germans did get kicked back 120-150 in some sectors... but not all. In many sectors, they didn't get kicked back at all. That's the problem. The Wehrmacht is too easy in 1.03 to push around in ALL sectors. This is not historical, and the Soviets should only be able to make that progress by concentrating force, or if the Germans are grossly overextended.

[mmarquo]

"Let's be careful to understand that where the Soviets started from was not necessarily where the Germans had gotten to. German "control" of their farthest advances was minimal at best"
 
I calculated the distances from the map I uploaded; the point is that Germans were punted backwards for quite some distance.
 
Marquo [:)]

[Mynok]

Well, maps are maps, and reality is reality. The Germans may have pushed spearheads that far but claiming control of that territory is debatable. That's really my only point.