Is this even vaguely realistic?

[Redmarkus5]

Road to Leningrad PBEM.

My opponent was able drive his panzers across marshes and through woods, with no obvious line of supply, all the way to the Finnish border, then wheel left and attack Leningrad from the East. Of course, once he shook hands with the Finns, they joined in.

Is this really a feasible option that could have been played out in 1941?

[Oleg Mastruko]

Not only it is feasible, it's by far the best way to take LG as German, in the GAME. May I suggest you read couple last posts in my AAR with Senno (Waiting for the spring miracle), where exactly this way to take LG is being discussed and suggested by myself.

Now, as to how realistic that would be in real world.... I won't comment.... I constantly complain about Germans being supermen in summer 41, but people refuse to believe me. Germans are indeed overpowered, but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.

Note, also that he didn't need any panzers borrowed from AGM to do this (it's Road to... so no AGM).

[Mynok]

He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?

[Josh]

Hmm, I see he used only  a small fraction of his troops to block Leningrad. Maybe he used two FBD units together to get the rails as fast as possible to Staraya Russa? Maybe coupled with HQ buildup?
Impressive move though...

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?

Do you know anything about the terrain in that part of the world? The Soviets spent months building log roads just to bring supplies up to Tikhvin.

Sigh. I am going to complete my map mod and then head off to other things.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Not only it is feasible, it's by far the best way to take LG as German, in the GAME. May I suggest you read couple last posts in my AAR with Senno (Waiting for the spring miracle), where exactly this way to take LG is being discussed and suggested by myself.

Now, as to how realistic that would be in real world.... I won't comment.... I constantly complain about Germans being supermen in summer 41, but people refuse to believe me. Germans are indeed overpowered, but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.

Note, also that he didn't need any panzers borrowed from AGM to do this (it's Road to... so no AGM).

I hear you.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Josh

Hmm, I see he used only  a small fraction of his troops to block Leningrad. Maybe he used two FBD units together to get the rails as fast as possible to Staraya Russa? Maybe coupled with HQ buildup?
Impressive move though...

I do understand that it's possible in the game - I just witnessed it first hand.

My question is, was this even remotely conceivable in real life?

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: Mynok


He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?

Do you know anything about the terrain in that part of the world? The Soviets spent months building log roads just to bring supplies up to Tikhvin.

Sigh. I am going to complete my map mod and then head off to other things.

They have rail corridors they can follow. I have no clue if they could have done it in real life. It's probably unanswerable.

[Senno]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.

Srangely, that's my strategy also.[;)]

You can see my AAR for a bit of balance to Oleg's reporting, Red. But I must warn you, my turns didn't develope the same way, sadly.

I ruthlessly expose the warts, that's for sure.[;)]

Otherwise, in game it's realistic. I do it to the AI every time.

[Josh]

In real life? Not in my opinion. Well it certainly would've fit with Hitler's megalomania. But just look at the terrain, the troops you would need, the trucks for supplies. The Valday hills were heavilly fought over, more like trench warfare... so yeah, great move gamewise. Not so certain it could've been done in real life..... *then again* stranger things have happened... you just never know for sure. I'd say; unlikely.

[ComradeP]

This has, once again, nothing to do with the Germans being supermen. Both sides face the same MP costs for entering the various terrain hexes.

As you can see, the majority of those hexes are light woods or heavy woods hexes. The area wasn't one big bog. Whether it's realistic or not would primarily depend on how long it took the Panzers to get there.

[Ketza]

Wow what a breakthrough.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

This has, once again, nothing to do with the Germans being supermen. Both sides face the same MP costs for entering the various terrain hexes.

It's not just MP costs to enter terrain hexes that makes any unit supermen, how about supply, morale, readiness (yes I know WITE does not have any factor directly named "readiness" but other games have), fatigue... Germans in summer appear not to suffer any of that.

I did this trick in one game vs human, it was pretty easy, in part because he didn't expect it, and in part because he had to man the Luga line in any case - I sent some units there in case he pulls back and leaves that, more direct approach, open. German secret weapon? HQ buildup! Seriously, HQ buildup is Kido Butai Death Star of this game (for those who played WITP). You pay pretty steep price in damaged and lost trucks but it's definitely worth sacrificing 1200 trucks at the altar of supermanity, in order to be able to cross Valdai Hills and this Nowehere land couple times with 50 MPs and link up with Finns.

[mmarquo]

"it was pretty easy, in part because he didn't expect it"
 
Oleg,
 
Are you actually giving your game play credit rather than the old "ubermensch" theorem? I see we are making progress....
 
Marquo [:)] 

[Oleg Mastruko]

[:D] LOL Marquo you're being funny again.... gotta be some of that ubermensch virus went from my German counters to my lungs and bloodstream, making me one of Them.

[Tarhunnas]

I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!

I live in Sweden and I have visited parts of Russia (though not the exact parts e are talking about here I admit) and I did my military service as a tank platoon commander in similar terrain. You simply cannot drive large mechanised forces through that kind of terrain just like that! Especially not when most of their stuff and supplies come on two-wheel drive trucks not made for off road driving.

There was a reason the Germans did not sent their panzer formations this way. IMHO much more of the terrain east of Leningrad should be heavy woods, and terrain should have a much more marked effect on supply.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!

I tend to agree with Tarhunnas, this is not the Ardennes, it seems far too easy for panzers, indeed any large military force, to move through this area. Would be interesting to see some WWII vintage maps of this area...

Just seems like if it were this easy, the Germans would have done this rather than beseiging Lgrad for 900 days?

[ComradeP]

It's not just MP costs to enter terrain hexes that makes any unit supermen, how about supply, morale, readiness (yes I know WITE does not have any factor directly named "readiness" but other games have), fatigue... Germans in summer appear not to suffer any of that.

Fatique could be interpreted as readiness. In any case, there's probably no functional rail line near the spearhead, so they'll feel the supply pressure. 30 MP's or so each turn don't cut it for a breakthrough through terrain like that. Due to the changes to morale gain, German units will on average face a higher MP cost for entering hexes than in the release version.

German mobile unit CV's after moving are also usually not that high, and the Soviets only need 1:1 odds to push them back.

Considering that the Germans only have about 1 Panzer corps for AGN, I'm quite surprised that they got this far. It indicates a major failure in Soviet defensive strategy. If you can't stop a handful of mobile units from doing this, that says something about the defensive skills of the Soviet player, not about the Germans being supermen.

German secret weapon? HQ buildup! Seriously, HQ buildup is Kido Butai Death Star of this game (for those who played WITP). You pay pretty steep price in damaged and lost trucks but it's definitely worth sacrificing 1200 trucks at the altar of supermanity, in order to be able to cross Valdai Hills and this Nowehere land couple times with 50 MPs and link up with Finns.

HQ build-up reduces overall supply by about 2% according to the manual. Do it 5 times in one or two turns and you're facing a 10% supply reduction for about 2 months and you lose a few thousand trucks. A proper defensive line can slow the Germans down even if they have 50 MP's. In my game with James, he advanced about 5-6 hexes on turn 2 in many areas (with around 45-50 MP's), not something I'm scared of.

There was a reason the Germans did not sent their panzer formations this way.

How do you know that, have you read any OKH studies debating the pros and cons of this move? We don't know if this move was possible in real life or not because the Germans didn't try it. That's not the same thing as it being impossible. I'd also say that it's debatable whether mobile units would not be able to move through largely undefended light woods. It would be slow, but it would still be possible.

redmarkus opponent drove around 200 miles to link up with the Finns (from the starting positions indicated by the arrows he placed on the map). The main question is how long it took them to do so. If it took him 4 turns or so, that's 50 miles/turn and only 7.1 miles per day. I don't find that an unreasonable rate of advance at all, it's rather slow for mobile forces, fitting for the terrain type.

[Schmauser]

Depends on how you define the word "realistic".

Are you saying 100% probability of success or snowball's chance in hell percentages?

How realistic was it to think that Germans could be knocking at the doors of Moscow 5 months after advancing into the SU?

How realistic was it to think that Germans would conquer Poland in a month and France in 6 weeks?


To me the bottom line is that a computer game will always require one to sacrifice a bit of reality in order to have something that is playable. In this case, your opponent likely used HQ buildups to max MP's. In addition, terrain modifiers for the woods hexes is universal across the map which doesn't account for local variations in density or additional terrain factors. This makes movement predictable, but not that realistic.

I am actually surprised more Axis players don't use this in GC's. Requires a few more troops, but works well to activate the Finns. This also frees up German troops for the winter.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
How do you know that, have you read any OKH studies debating the pros and cons of this move? We don't know if this move was possible in real life or not because the Germans didn't try it. That's not the same thing as it being impossible. I'd also say that it's debatable whether mobile units would not be able to move through largely undefended light woods. It would be slow, but it would still be possible.

I think we'd have a better understanding of whether it was actually possible if we looked at a map with (or rather, without) roads. Even one ten mile (ie, one hex) stretch of forest without a road would be an enormous obstacle to overcome in a week, and we are looking at about 18 hexes from Lake Ilmen to the Finish border! I seriously doubt that there was an uninterrupted network of roads through that stretch of "undefended light woods", although I could be wrong.

I think at home I might have a link to a website with scans of old Soviet maps (I think 40s-50s vintage), will try to check today or tomorrow.

ORIGINAL: Schmauser

Depends on how you define the word "realistic".

To me the bottom line is that a computer game will always require one to sacrifice a bit of reality in order to have something that is playable. In this case, your opponent likely used HQ buildups to max MP's.

Good question, but to me if something is physically impossible (as I deem advancing thousands of vehicles hundreds of miles through trackless forest), it is "unrealistic", and it is sacrificing more than a "bit of reality" if it can happen. But again, we don't know the state of the road network, so for now at least, who knows?