More Better WitP:AE

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Zemke
Posts: 665
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:45 am
Location: Oklahoma

More Better WitP:AE

Post by Zemke »

Something I posted in the WitE forum that really belongs here, so I will share the idea.

"I wish WitP:AE had tactical maps of the islands like "War in the Pacific", 2nd Edition has, a remake of the old SPI "War in the Pacific". With a tweaked ground combat model similar to WitE, (combat model is one of my issues with WitE, but not the major one), then WitP:AE would be the perfect massive Grognard game."

But really the ground combat model is all we are missing to have perfection. Can you imagine landing on Guadalcanal and going to the tactical map, of say 1k hexes, while in China the hex scale could be 20k or 15 miles or whatever.
"Actions Speak Louder than Words"
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Something I posted in the WitE forum that really belongs here, so I will share the idea.

"I wish WitP:AE had tactical maps of the islands like "War in the Pacific", 2nd Edition has, a remake of the old SPI "War in the Pacific". With a tweaked ground combat model similar to WitE, (combat model is one of my issues with WitE, but not the major one), then WitP:AE would be the perfect massive Grognard game."

But really the ground combat model is all we are missing to have perfection. Can you imagine landing on Guadalcanal and going to the tactical map, of say 1k hexes, while in China the hex scale could be 20k or 15 miles or whatever.

I can imagine it, but not in a good way. [:'(]
The Moose
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

The problem with the ground combat model is the scalar mesh (46 miles) is a really bad match for the temporal mesh (1 day turns). A stochastic finite difference scheme (which is what the ground combat model really is) mustn't be stiff. (See this article.) The ground combat model is really stiff. There are ways of overcoming this problem, but they would require a really serious rewrite of the game engine by someone with an advanced degree in computational numerical analysis, which is not likely to occur.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

Something I posted in the WitE forum that really belongs here, so I will share the idea.

"I wish WitP:AE had tactical maps of the islands like "War in the Pacific", 2nd Edition has, a remake of the old SPI "War in the Pacific". With a tweaked ground combat model similar to WitE, (combat model is one of my issues with WitE, but not the major one), then WitP:AE would be the perfect massive Grognard game."

But really the ground combat model is all we are missing to have perfection. Can you imagine landing on Guadalcanal and going to the tactical map, of say 1k hexes, while in China the hex scale could be 20k or 15 miles or whatever.

I can imagine it, but not in a good way. [:'(]

+1 [X(]
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
User avatar
jeffk3510
Posts: 4143
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:59 am
Location: Merica

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by jeffk3510 »

I always wonder about things like this too.... you have real time tactics at the battle level...

Just think it would be crazily complex...
Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Dez caught it
User avatar
Onime No Kyo
Posts: 16846
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:55 am

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Onime No Kyo »

ORIGINAL: herwin

The problem with the ground combat model is the scalar mesh (46 miles) is a really bad match for the temporal mesh (1 day turns). A stochastic finite difference scheme (which is what the ground combat model really is) mustn't be stiff. (See this article.) The ground combat model is really stiff. There are ways of overcoming this problem, but they would require a really serious rewrite of the game engine by someone with an advanced degree in computational numerical analysis, which is not likely to occur.

I'm not sure what this any of that meant, so I'll assume that its Welsh poetry. [X(][:D]
"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: herwin

The problem with the ground combat model is the scalar mesh (46 miles) is a really bad match for the temporal mesh (1 day turns). A stochastic finite difference scheme (which is what the ground combat model really is) mustn't be stiff. (See this article.) The ground combat model is really stiff. There are ways of overcoming this problem, but they would require a really serious rewrite of the game engine by someone with an advanced degree in computational numerical analysis, which is not likely to occur.

I'm not sure what this any of that meant, so I'll assume that its Welsh poetry. [X(][:D]

A reasonable response.

Let me see if I can explain. From the wikipedia article: "a stiff equation is a differential equation for which certain numerical methods for solving the equation are numerically unstable, unless the step size is taken to be extremely small." In reality, things happened gradually in a area the size of a WitP-AE hex, so that it took a long time (weeks or months) for it to change hands. Casualties were also gradual. The game does it all in a day, which gives the math whiplash--just about literally.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
Rainer
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:00 am
Location: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Rainer »

its Welsh poetry

No.
He's trying to say he doesn't understand what's going on, so he's looking for a computer literate to explain to him why he is always on the loosing side.
Then again, that's why we all are here, aren't we?[;)]
WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta
Rainer
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:00 am
Location: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Rainer »

Let me see if I can explain. From the wikipedia article: "a stiff equation is a differential equation for which certain numerical methods for solving the equation are numerically unstable, unless the step size is taken to be extremely small." In reality, things happened gradually in a area the size of a WitP-AE hex, so that it took a long time (weeks or months) for it to change hands. Casualties were also gradual. The game does it all in a day, which gives the math whiplash--just about literally.

Na bitte, geht doch (German for "see, he can if he wants to")

The only thing me poor German doesn't understand is the term "whiplash".
But that is probably the result of my poor education [:'(]
Talking 'bout poor education: shouldn't it be "in an area" instead of "in a area"? Just asking ...
WitP/AE
1.7.11.26b
Data base changes by Andy Mac October 16, 2012
Scen #1 Allied vs AI Level Hard Daily Turns
Art Mods by TomLabel and Reg
Topo Map by chemkid

WitW / Torch
1.01.37 - 1.01.44 beta
janh
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:06 pm

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by janh »

Not sure whether the mesh should be smaller -- the movement in most of SE Asia is very slow due to the nature of terrain, and if you break down the scale further, land warfare could drag out to eternity.  I think it is quite sufficient with the 46mile hexes, and it would not add much to have better resolution. 
The land combat model could use some refinement, though.  It works quite nicely for most of the Pacific war, but the rare occurrences were mobile warfare and tank warfare would be important (plains of OZ, or India) should perhaps get a little attention.

Much much more important I would find
(a) improvement of the AI, and particularly adding a powerful scripting syntax that would allow to script an individual campaign where AI dynamically picks targets, starts or cancels unsuccessful operations etc.
(b) reduction of micromanagement by simplifying/adding auto management tools, especially for pilot training, adjusting engine production automatically to airframe production, a way to manage autoconvoys in more (allowed min/max number of ships, type for each route) as compromise between simple auto-C, and manual set-up of convoys etc.

User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: herwin
The ground combat model is really stiff. There are ways of overcoming this problem, but they would require a really serious rewrite of the game engine by someone with an advanced degree in computational numerical analysis, which is not likely to occur.

we certainly know it won't be Harry that does it. [8|]

User avatar
EUBanana
Posts: 4255
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: Little England
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: herwin
Let me see if I can explain. From the wikipedia article: "a stiff equation is a differential equation for which certain numerical methods for solving the equation are numerically unstable, unless the step size is taken to be extremely small." In reality, things happened gradually in a area the size of a WitP-AE hex, so that it took a long time (weeks or months) for it to change hands. Casualties were also gradual. The game does it all in a day, which gives the math whiplash--just about literally.


I don't think it'd be that hard necessarily. To draw out battles you could have each hex score the two sides, so a hex remembers 'who is winning', and then victory conditions like more casualties to the enemy and who gets kicked out of the hex could be derived partially from that. Thus smoothing out the bitty day by day fights over a longer period of time.
Image
beppi
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:23 am
Location: Austria

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by beppi »

I think there is still place for a WITP: FAE, Fleet Admiral Edition, or GAE Grand Admiral Edition [:D]
pmelheck1
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:04 pm
Location: Alabama

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by pmelheck1 »

I'm afraid I have to agree with those folks who think a battle board for each island would not be good.    The sheer volume of added maps would be incredible for what I don't think would be a similar or larger benefit to ground combat and generic maps with this crowd wouldn't fly.  The amount of added work to deploy all units on all islands and keep them currently deployed would be unworkable and would require tracking ground assets as we now track ships and pilots.  Setting up units during an invasion wouldn't work either as most defenders do not draw up their defense plans and deploy units as the landing craft are in bound to the beach.  While having AE as a strategic framework with squad leader level or operational art of war ground combat may sound great to some folks it's integration into the one day turns would be I think a major issue.  Look at how long turns can take now.  Imagine 10-20 battles each requiring 24 one hour turns each fought one at a time and the complete battlefield saved to continue the next day (for up to weeks and months).  I'm also sure folks would want control over things like fortifications to control how fortification items like pill-boxes, trenches, strong points would be placed requiring some sort of turn to run for each island to simulate construction of said items rather than picking stuff at invasion rather then the planning that went into them historically (and sometimes turned out very bad in hindsight).

Most of the stuff I see on the boards indicates people in general like the micromanagement found in AE otherwise I think they would have found another game.  I don't think a generic mini game to simulate ground combat wouldn't fly with the depth players, at least to me, seem to want.  Rolling WIR with WITP:AE while sounding great on some levels when looking at the depth I would want across the board for all aspects of the game would be unplayable from a size issue and from a time to both plan and execute a turn.

All that said.  Do I think ground combat can be improved?  Yes.  I think ground combat is ok as is but remember ground combat wasn't the main focus of this game so some balancing had to be done and I think it was done well.  The exact way ground combat could be improved for me is much harder to say as I much prefer the navel/air combat personally, and I seem to recall combat in the pacific was relatively short and bloody for one if not both sides.   But if a change to ground combat would excessively lengthen a turn I'm not sure I would be happy with that either.
Schanilec
Posts: 4038
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: Grand Forks, ND

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Schanilec »

Campaign Series: Rising Sun and Fighting Steel all wrapped into one.[X(]
 
[:D]
This is one Czech that doesn't bounce.
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Rainer
Let me see if I can explain. From the wikipedia article: "a stiff equation is a differential equation for which certain numerical methods for solving the equation are numerically unstable, unless the step size is taken to be extremely small." In reality, things happened gradually in a area the size of a WitP-AE hex, so that it took a long time (weeks or months) for it to change hands. Casualties were also gradual. The game does it all in a day, which gives the math whiplash--just about literally.

Na bitte, geht doch (German for "see, he can if he wants to")

The only thing me poor German doesn't understand is the term "whiplash".
But that is probably the result of my poor education [:'(]
Talking 'bout poor education: shouldn't it be "in an area" instead of "in a area"? Just asking ...

Sometimes when I edit a sentence, I forget to fix all the endings. Or I use the wrong language...

Whiplash is what happens when your car is hit in the rear and your head is snapped back. It's not good for your neck or spinal column. Computer math can experience whiplash when you hit a complex numerical system with a sudden massive blow like a month's casualties in a day. It overshoots and snaps back. Look at the h=1/4 case of the motivating example in the article on stiff equations. That's what I'm describing informally by 'whiplash'.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: janh

Not sure whether the mesh should be smaller -- the movement in most of SE Asia is very slow due to the nature of terrain, and if you break down the scale further, land warfare could drag out to eternity.  I think it is quite sufficient with the 46mile hexes, and it would not add much to have better resolution. 
The land combat model could use some refinement, though.  It works quite nicely for most of the Pacific war, but the rare occurrences were mobile warfare and tank warfare would be important (plains of OZ, or India) should perhaps get a little attention.

Much much more important I would find
(a) improvement of the AI, and particularly adding a powerful scripting syntax that would allow to script an individual campaign where AI dynamically picks targets, starts or cancels unsuccessful operations etc.
(b) reduction of micromanagement by simplifying/adding auto management tools, especially for pilot training, adjusting engine production automatically to airframe production, a way to manage autoconvoys in more (allowed min/max number of ships, type for each route) as compromise between simple auto-C, and manual set-up of convoys etc.


What you're asking from the AI is currently well beyond the state of the art. I asked one of my PhD students to come up with a small piece of what's needed--a neural network that could predict motion as well as a bat does, and he dropped it like a hot potato. The closest we currently have is Elman networks, and they aren't good enough for what I want. Yes, this is my research focus. To eliminate micromanagement would also require that sort of planning tools. It's a really nasty problem.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: herwin
Let me see if I can explain. From the wikipedia article: "a stiff equation is a differential equation for which certain numerical methods for solving the equation are numerically unstable, unless the step size is taken to be extremely small." In reality, things happened gradually in a area the size of a WitP-AE hex, so that it took a long time (weeks or months) for it to change hands. Casualties were also gradual. The game does it all in a day, which gives the math whiplash--just about literally.


I don't think it'd be that hard necessarily. To draw out battles you could have each hex score the two sides, so a hex remembers 'who is winning', and then victory conditions like more casualties to the enemy and who gets kicked out of the hex could be derived partially from that. Thus smoothing out the bitty day by day fights over a longer period of time.

Yeah, I spent some time on that approach, and I think it can be made to work. It's really WitP-AE II.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
LeeChard
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 pm
Location: Michigan

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by LeeChard »

I think when ground combat begins the game should shift over to a FPS like Call of Duty.
Maybe play one soldier or marine per company in the Pacific theater. The turn might take a while to play though....
User avatar
Onime No Kyo
Posts: 16846
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:55 am

RE: More Better WitP:AE

Post by Onime No Kyo »

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

I think when ground combat begins the game should shift over to a FPS like Call of Duty.
Maybe play one soldier or marine per company in the Pacific theater. The turn might take a while to play though....

Well, they have those 24 hour races in the racing games. [:D]
"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”