Marine Squadron Rules

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Capt. Harlock
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Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Capt. Harlock »

PacWar has a limitation in the aircraft that can be assigned to specific squadrons. It really should be possible to convert Australian and Dutch fighter squadrons to P-40's at will, and bomber squadrons to B-25's. On the opposite side, USMC squadrons can fly just about anything, which is not realistic given that their equipment was controlled by the Navy.

A suggestion: one USMC fighter squadron be allowed to fly the P-39 Airacobra (the Cactus Air Force historically flew the P-400, the export version). A second squadron would be allowed to "experiment", and fly USAAF fighters. One USMC dive-bomber squadron would be allowed to fly the Vengeance, which is nearly a super-weapon in the latest version, but can be impossible to assign to any squadron if the Blenheim IV squadrons have been destroyed or converted.
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

In a game allies against AI you can give Commonwealth groups B25s without an editor. Recall the computer offers an upgrade to B25s to the Dutch groups flying Martin 139s.

After the flag is set to offer an upgrade for the Martin 139, any Commonwealth airgroup flying tac bombers can be manually switched to Martin 139s and next turn the program offers the upgrade to B25s.

The problem with the Vengeance is contemporary performance information has been believed. It is inconsisent with known features. Matrix believed the performance information. Which results in the Vengeance with 75% the horsepower of an SB2C but 98% of the weight being superior. And, versus the SBD, 30% more horsepower but 60% more weight and being better.

So we have a wonder plane in the game that doesn't make sense, that the US Army used as a target tug, that the Brits got rid of as quick as they could, and the last batch of which couldn't be sold to any nation in combat (Brazil bought them).

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Capt. Harlock
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Capt. Harlock »

So we have a wonder plane in the game that doesn't make sense, that the US Army used as a target tug, that the Brits got rid of as quick as they could,

From my research, the Brits actually used them in the Burma-India theater until July 1944. But the point is that a USMC squadron equipped with Vengeances would have a range of 5. If a corresponding USMC fighter squadron were to be equipped with P-38's or P-51's for escort, you would have an unhistorical and nasty IJN ship-killing ability out of any base size 2 or greater. Perhaps the USMC should be forbidden all non-USN aircraft except the P-39?
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo
bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

Apparently that has some acceptance. The agreed rules in my recent games were US airgroups could use only US aircraft and all factories could build aircraft only of their own nationality.

Game allows USMC airgroups to use the P47 which I believe has some historical basis although probably not done real life as much as players do. Biggest gripe I've heard from Allied players is that non-US fighter can't use US Army aircraft except the P47.

The Matrix version selectively enforces historical availability. The priorities of players are probably idfferent that those of the designers.

Best choice would have been to open up all airgroups to all choices, provide a list of historical use (instead of selective enforcement) and let players decide. I realize its a free game, but Matrix is using it to promote the company so product quality does matter. Its their name on the game.

I think with what they call the AI "cheats" gone, the game is too easy and new players will be in for an even bigger shock when they play against a human. There's the oil problem when IJ is AI, and the change in IJ's kill multplier which you observed several years ago you consided a mistake.

It would be nice if Matrix concluded that since it has their name on it, maybe someone ought to take a few hours to fix a few things.
Eno67
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Eno67 »

If you convert Dutch, Brits or Austrialian squadrons to Wirrways then you can convert them to P40 after that. There is the obvious experience loss but I think they make up for it later on with the improve performance.
 
I've played exclusively British/Dutch/Austrailian campaign game and I wished the P-36 was kept in production. It's 4 range come in handy early in the war and I keep those squadrons as long as I can but I usually have to cannibalize a squadron to make up for the losses as time goes on.
bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

ORIGINAL: Eno67

If you convert Dutch, Brits or Austrialian squadrons to Wirrways then you can convert them to P40 after that. There is the obvious experience loss but I think they make up for it later on with the improve performance.

I've played exclusively British/Dutch/Austrailian campaign game and I wished the P-36 was kept in production. It's 4 range come in handy early in the war and I keep those squadrons as long as I can but I usually have to cannibalize a squadron to make up for the losses as time goes on.


Wow, another hole, like the Martin 139 deal. Good catch.

Note, though, if its like the ones I mentioned it will not work on PBEM.

Concering your comments on the virtues of the Hawk, you know, here's another instance, I think, of a mis-rated aircraft. All this stuff on making the cost of certain aircraft 99 to discourage their use... why not put them in the game at their true cost with their true inferior performance so players won't WANT to use them? Let the marketplace work!
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Capt. Harlock
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Capt. Harlock »

All this stuff on making the cost of certain aircraft 99 to discourage their use... why not put them in the game at their true cost with their true inferior performance so players won't WANT to use them? Let the marketplace work!

Actually, with an editor such as the Excel-based pacwared21 it should be fairly easy to put the aircraft stats to rights. There should even be a slot to identify whether the aircraft can be used by CV's or Commonwealth squadrons.
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

Aircraft characteristics can be changed with that editor. There is no input for availability. I checked the old DOS editor and it is the same. I think what other aircraft are available to replace an existing aircraft is in the exe file.
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Capt. Harlock »

There should even be a slot to identify whether the aircraft can be used by CV's or Commonwealth squadrons.

After a little more research, I've discovered that aircraft permissions are hard-coded into "pac.exe".
There are three types for the Japanese: IJN CV, IJN, and IJA.
There are four types for the Allies: Allied N CV, Allied NAF (Commonwealth, Dutch, and Marine squadrons), USAAF, and All Allied. Note this last actually means land-based squadrons only, and covers P-47 Thunderbolts, B-24 Liberators, and C-47 Dakotas.

If someone really wanted to be tricky, I think you could put a new aircraft into the appropriate slot, using the editor. But that would risk messing up the game elsewhere.
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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Eno67
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by Eno67 »

I'd replace the Wirrway with the P36 if it was a choice so it could stay in prodution. The Wirrway in PACWAR is a waste of a plane...except to transition over to P-40. Yes, it is a figther bomber but it's not going to get thru and if by miracle of chance one or two do they don't do much damage. I'm not saying the P36 is a great plane by any stretch of the imagination but the Finns replaced the .303 with .50 and it didn't reduce the P36 flying characteristics.  
As far a PBEM games I am not sure if it works or not. When you switch to the Wirrways the next turn the game ask if you would like to switch to P-40. That's how you make the switch. I have never played PBEM before and don't know if it asks you if you want to switch aircraft.
 
You know thou...the Japanese have a hard enough time no need in kicking them in the teeth giving the allies the ability to produce the P36. For the Brits I keep the Buffalos flying as long as I can too because the Hurricane isn't much of a boost to loose the experience hit when switching aircraft early on.
 
As the Brits if you convert a Wellington over to a B24 squadron you can never convert them back to british style bombers.
 
What is the Martin 139 hole?
bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

ORIGINAL: Eno67What is the Martin 139 hole?

There are two groups of tac bombers, British and US Army. On the aricraft change screen, the players can choose only one group or the other, depending on what the airgroup is currently flying.

The Martin 139 is on the British list. However, after a certain date, (not in a PBEM game) The Dutch groups flying the Martin 139 are offered an upgrade to B25s. So if the Allied player switches a Bleinheim airgroup or whatever, to Martin 139s, they are offered an upgrade to B25s.

bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

ORIGINAL: Eno67

I'd replace the Wirrway with the P36 if it was a choice so it could stay in prodution. The Wirrway in PACWAR is a waste of a plane...except to transition over to P-40. Yes, it is a figther bomber but it's not going to get thru and if by miracle of chance one or two do they don't do much damage. I'm not saying the P36 is a great plane by any stretch of the imagination but the Finns replaced the .303 with .50 and it didn't reduce the P36 flying characteristics.  
As far a PBEM games I am not sure if it works or not. When you switch to the Wirrways the next turn the game ask if you would like to switch to P-40. That's how you make the switch. I have never played PBEM before and don't know if it asks you if you want to switch aircraft.

You know thou...the Japanese have a hard enough time no need in kicking them in the teeth giving the allies the ability to produce the P36. For the Brits I keep the Buffalos flying as long as I can too because the Hurricane isn't much of a boost to loose the experience hit when switching aircraft early on.

As the Brits if you convert a Wellington over to a B24 squadron you can never convert them back to british style bombers.

What is the Martin 139 hole?

I think the game over rates the P36.

IJ AI has a tough time because AI functions without feedback on its success or failures, as a human can, and without the ablity to predict opponent actions, again as a human can. SSI had some subtle help built in for IJ AI. Matrix decided this common feature of games was "cheating" and disabled the help.

The result is a game that is not very challenging against AI. A couple games, and people think they have it mastered. The result is too much of a difference in difficulty between playing against AI and playing against a human.

Suggest you try PBEM. You'll never see the true capabiltiies of the other side any other way.
bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

Further explanation of my opinion on the P36 being over rated.

I believe that real life, it is posible for a good aircraft to be over looked by a few. I believe an aircraft that wa rejected by everyone real life that in the game is highly desireable to players must be over rated in the game.

Quality of the competition is an important factor. The P36 being successful against IJA aircraft isn't really much of a recommendation.

The capability of aircraft inreased at a huge rate 1930 to 1950. The idea a 5 year old aircraft with no updates would be competitive with a new one just doesn't make sense. The TBD was the USN's first monoplane aircraft, the best it had for at the time, and four years later it was not combat capable.

bradk
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RE: Marine Squadron Rules

Post by bradk »

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
There should even be a slot to identify whether the aircraft can be used by CV's or Commonwealth squadrons.

After a little more research, I've discovered that aircraft permissions are hard-coded into "pac.exe".

That' what it looked like to me. Thank you for the confirmation.

Some of the probloms we've discussed here and in other threads have to be corrected in the exe. It appears only Matrix is likely to have the capability.

As I said in another post, I think its to their advantage to do so, even though it doesn't directly make them money. Their name is on the game. The giveaway is to promote the company, and problems with the giveaway hurt the company.
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