The weather thing

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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MechFO
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RE: The weather thing

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

So, in 9 turns of Blizzard Trey pushed me back 5 hexes from Moscow and 6 from Rostov. He was starting to get some momentum, and I would probably have lost another 3 hexes over the whole front, but I felt I was in pretty good shape for the 3 snow Turns, and would have expected to get 2-3 back, so I think you are seeing the 1942 Campaign Start Lines.

Not a single Fortified Zone to be seen.

So you are in level 3-4 forts, with an extremely well built up supply net, (I think the Germans took well into 42 to get that kind of coverage), probably fairly good strenght units since you've been digging in for a while, and still have historical losses?

Sorry, that doesn't compute. If one wants to argue historical baselines, your supply net should be much worse, or the Axis rail penalty should be higher, but dug in and fully supplied German units shouldn't be suffering the same as historically attrited German units in the open and at the end of a very long and severely overloaded supply lines.

As stated, it's obvious that the Winter 41 has been chosen as the big balancing tool, and this is IMO not a good choice considering the timeframe and scope of the game.

Balancing for the Axis should show their real world constraints, production and logistics, for 41 especially logistics. The base logistics system is IMO excellent and provides plenty of levers via f.e. MP per repair rail, Axis Raily Supply modifier, vehicle pool etc.

Maybe Winter 41 was chosen because it's easier to test, but it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game.
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Zemke
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RE: The weather thing

Post by Zemke »

It would seem to be just common sense that forts or improved positions of any kind would lessen the effects of the cold. How could they not, and from all accounts did, and as someone said in a post somewhere, the German units that were dug in were always able to beat back Soviet attacks in 41-42, until they were turned out of their positions and had to retreat. This is not reflected in the game. Winter comes, it does not matter one bit how well dug in the Germans are, they are going DOWN sooner or later, because it seems the blizzard just keeps sucking combat power out of the unit and it becomes so weak it cannot stand. Open ground no shelter, yes troops without cold weather clothing would suffer terriblely, but not a level three fort, after killing and stripping the piles of dead in front of my MG positions and taking the boots and jackets off the dead....just not buying that.
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RE: The weather thing

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
If it takes the best of the best to get close to historical results


What none of the PBEM AARs have shown yet, is just how well the Axis can recover in the March snow turns.

Yea you're right that's why ara and i will be posting after our winter to see how it plays out. I'm interested to see how it goes. we're hoping to have winter done tonight or tomorrow. Surprisingly my russian turns are now 2-3 hours with all the attacks i have to coordinate. :)
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RE: The weather thing

Post by bwheatley »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak



Joel has asked to see Turn53 OOBs, to determine if the Axis numbers are falling too far behind the historical curve - we haven't seen many yet.


Cool i'll make sure we keep good screenies of those turns for you guys.
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EisenHammer
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RE: The weather thing

Post by EisenHammer »

I'll say one thing and that is the more I played the game the better I'm getting at it.[:)]
With that said, I still think digging in should offer some protection from the winter weather. But its also good to see that with some practice you can survive the first winter in Russia.
And I'm sure 2By3games will be making some changes to it later on.
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Zemke
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RE: The weather thing

Post by Zemke »

BigA how in the heck did you get that much rail converted, I can hardly get a lines long enough to supply most of the front, but I have never been able to have all my rear area converted, not even close. What am I missing now?
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karonagames
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RE: The weather thing

Post by karonagames »

At Zemke_4: In this test I probably planned my rail conversion more than in previous tests, as I realised the importance of having railheads at key locations, to keep rebuilding battered units back up to front line strength. I also built North-South spur lines to help move reinforcements to threatened sectors. The bulk of the conversion was done by the auto-repair CBs.
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Balou
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RE: The weather thing

Post by Balou »

In the OOB, the SU has only 1200 AC left by turn 34. How did you do that? AF bombing during blizzards ? When I compare these AC figures to the losses I inflicted to the SU-AI (actually turn 31, Axis-GC vs AI, difficulty normal), I seem to be far behind.
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Zorch
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RE: The weather thing

Post by Zorch »

IMHO, the problem with the first winter is not that the Germans are too weakened by the blizzard rules, per se, but that the Soviets aren't penalized enough. This is not just semantics; not every Soviet unit was winter prepared like the Siberian reinforcements. Perhaps this could be implemented by blizzard readiness penalties on units raised after war broke out, or based on some other criteria.

How many frostbite casualties did the Soviets have during the first winter? They weren't supermen.
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LiquidSky
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RE: The weather thing

Post by LiquidSky »



No..but they had warm clothing
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RE: The weather thing

Post by raizer »

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abulbulian
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RE: The weather thing

Post by abulbulian »

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Thats not cool.[:(]
If the Axis player starts digging in November they should be able to do better than being stuck out in the open when winter hits.


This is what I was hoping too bro. But let me tell you it's far from the case in WitE and unfortunately far from historical. The weather was only one out of many factors that caused the disaster for the German army in late 41 early 42. Even if your units are forted (2-3), well rested, well supplied, high exp and moral... lol you'll still get jack up and down the line. I couldn't even hold in most places for one turn of blizzard. This needs to change. I'm fine with having axis units having no ability to attack in blizzard and movement causing damage to units and fatiguing them as well as attrition based on location, supply, and fort level. But not being able to defend a solid dug-in well supplied position is crazy IMO. If you read about that winter, you'll find the stories where these rested and defensive lines in certain areas that the Germans had gone defensive early were able to inflict heavy loses on sov repeated attacks in mid-late Dec and hold the line. Other units that had been pushed from Typhoon and other crazy late 41 operations had burned through supplies, exhausted, and well understrength and of courses suffered heavily. This is what people know more about and was the case for a large portion of the line.

We just need to supply data to the Dev's and I have a human vs human game that is going into end of bliz that has plenty of data.. [:)]
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EisenHammer
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RE: The weather thing

Post by EisenHammer »

Yeah… I just got done reading that thread. It's a good one with alot of data, looks like your almost thru the first winter.

I'm trying out Typhoon right now against the AI to see just how bad the blizzard turns are. I'm sure I will not like it.

You would think digging in would help out against winter attrition.[&:]
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RedLancer
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RE: The weather thing

Post by RedLancer »

Having browsed through the posts, survived my first winter playing the Germans and re-read a couple of relevant chapters about winter 41/42 I thought I'd add my view.
The first thing is that most of us think that we can do better than history. Hindsight has that effect. Therefore those of us who went for the dig in early option had a bit of a shock that it wasn't as effective as we might have liked.

I pen these thoughts after a little contemplation on how the Germans should suffer.

> In total the first winter must have shock value: it was the German's first setback on land.
> "Weapon lubricants froze so the only option was to use grenades" : reduced attack and defence values - already there!
> "Vehicles froze": reduced manoeuvre points - more impact on Axis reqd - not just damage to vehicles etc.
> "Not used to the winter" : increased fatigue - not just decreased morale.
> "Wrong clothing" : increased casualties - already there! However I think it should modified by month to reflect experience (similar to vehicles) and a bonus for digging in.
> "German uninsulated steam engines couldn't make steam" : reduced supply (already there) and rail capacity (needs to be added)
> "Not a step backwards" : reduction in admin points to reflect the impact of chain of command - needs to be added.

In summary perhaps less damage casualties but increased constraints in other areas.
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madgamer2
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MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by madgamer2 »

In one reply very early on in my "the weather thing" ome of the playtesters or person with some clout stated that the weather will STAY the way it is. Perhaps it might be because of what might have happened if the winter came later with more snow turns or the winter was late. There is an unstated belief to the question "what would have happened if the blizzard weather was 2-6 weeks later?". There is strong opinion that the Germans might have taken or isolated Moscow. Even if they edid it would not have ended the war as a Certain French Leader found out in 1812 but it would produce in game turns a very interesting situation.
The only way we are going to get change is to start a thread and have all who favor some changes or options in the weather rules sing into it. Even then the hard core who generally get there way might sink the whole project. I think that as long as the present rules are in the game making some what ifs with the weather would add a certain amount of not knowing what might happen. Is not war and battle made up of these two principals?
Well just a thought. Many of you who were testers might have some great ideas for some optional ways of doing things, BUT the ONLY way we can get Matrix to pay attention is to get a lot of folks involved in this.

Just my two cents worth....again
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abulbulian
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RE: MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by abulbulian »

The hindsight thing with any game of this genre is an issue. By the same token of the logic not allowing the axis to dig in and have a reasonable change to defend during blizzard one could argue the ability for the sov units in 41 to just keep retreating as would seem the logical strategy.

Both of this concepts have a large impact the game balancing. But would seem the 'smarter' choices unless there were some other incentive(s) to do otherwise. I can't see any reason for the sov player to hold exposed lines or not to checkboard his def. He'll have the ability to get plenty of factories out if he pursues this strategy.

For the axis, I suppose if the prize is Moscow or maybe Leningrad near the end of Nov... you could try and get it. But I can tell you right now after experiencing the blizzard of 41-42 even in prepared positions... you'll never keep Moscow. Unless maybe you take late Oct.
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EisenHammer
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RE: MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by EisenHammer »

I just got done with Typhoon against the AI on normal. And I have to say, it was not as bad as thought it would be. The times the Russian overran my L3 forts was when they had a 3+ to 1 in numbers of troops attacking me. Which too me seems reasonable. Again this is against the AI so I know it will be different against a real person in PBEM. I think an option to check on and off a Russian winter would be the best way to go. I Think I'm going to start a GC game now.
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RE: MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by siRkid »

I made it thru the first winter (on normal) by making as many Russian units surrender as I possibly could, not overextending my lines, digging in early and the use of forts behind my lines to slow down breakthroughs. I did not lose any divisions.

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randallw
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RE: MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by randallw »

This thread has gone on for quite a few messages, so I don't remember everything said.

Some questions for the playtesters:

Were the blizzard penalties the same for alpha testing as they were in the released version of the game?
Do you feel that the current penalties are close to historical, considering how flustered Axis players currently are?
Should the setup stay as it is?

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Joel Billings
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RE: MY 2 CENTS WORTH

Post by Joel Billings »

I will answer one of the questions and leave the rest for the testers. The first winter rules actually were eased several times during development. IIRC part of what was changed was reducing the impact even more in the later months (first Jan, and then Feb). Although there was always some reduction as the winter goes on, the reduction was increased. IIRC the last changes were made within the last 30 days of development before release.
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