North Atlantic '86 vs Med. Game
Moderator: maddog986
-
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Pacific Palisades, California, USA
- Contact:
North Atlantic '86 vs Med. Game
I don't know about you guys, but I firmly believe that Matrix should put off doing the Med until after they do a remake of North Atlantic '86.
NA '86 was by far the most exciting of Grigsby's game back in the '80's. It was far superior to "Bomb Alley", Grigsby's Med version of Guadalcanal. Therefore it is only logical that a modern version of NA'86 would be better than the Modern version of Bomb Alley.
Post here if you agree.
Hiroo
NA '86 was by far the most exciting of Grigsby's game back in the '80's. It was far superior to "Bomb Alley", Grigsby's Med version of Guadalcanal. Therefore it is only logical that a modern version of NA'86 would be better than the Modern version of Bomb Alley.
Post here if you agree.
Hiroo
- pasternakski
- Posts: 5567
- Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm
- pasternakski
- Posts: 5567
- Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm
My problems: NA86 never happened. Med did. Bomb Alley is dead. New design will not resemble it except for subject. Med WWII is a rich subject. NA86 is not interesting.
Bottom line: How many copies of revised NA86 you gonna sell? 20? Sorry - it's dead. Interest in Med WWII? Look at the thread (come on, you guys, back me up on this if you really want it - remember what I said in an earlier post about how barbarians are going to come stomping in here trying to kill the idea).
Bottom line: How many copies of revised NA86 you gonna sell? 20? Sorry - it's dead. Interest in Med WWII? Look at the thread (come on, you guys, back me up on this if you really want it - remember what I said in an earlier post about how barbarians are going to come stomping in here trying to kill the idea).
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
MED
I sound for MED too ... it must be not so hard use UV engine and made new map and units for MED ... it will be similar game as UV, but very interesting I thing. And with longer period (summer 1940 - 1943).
Matto
Matto
Excuse my English ... I hope is better then Your Czech ...
My MatrixGames: WitP, WitP AE, WPO, JTCS, P&S, CoGEE, ATG, GoA, B.Academy, C-GW, OoB all DLCs, all SC, FoG2/E, most AGEOD games ...
My MatrixGames: WitP, WitP AE, WPO, JTCS, P&S, CoGEE, ATG, GoA, B.Academy, C-GW, OoB all DLCs, all SC, FoG2/E, most AGEOD games ...
- Oleg Mastruko
- Posts: 4534
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am
For all that I know - Med game is already half-planned, after WITP, while no NA86 is being planned at all, so pasternakski if all goes well, we'll see Med before NA anyway, no need to be so aggressiveOriginally posted by pasternakski
Bottom line: How many copies of revised NA86 you gonna sell? 20? Sorry - it's dead. Interest in Med WWII? Look at the thread (come on, you guys, back me up on this if you really want it - remember what I said in an earlier post about how barbarians are going to come stomping in here trying to kill the idea).
Big con for Med game as I see it (and this goes in part for UV too) is that it was at best a secondary, if not tertiary, theatre for all the parties involved (except Italians), and that all the operations in Med were planned with Big Picture (ie, whole of Europe) in mind. Germans put all their land and air resources into defeating Russia, and what little UBoats they diverted into Med, is generally accepted to be their mistake anyway (most of the historians argue that those Med subs should be put to better use in Atlantic). As for surface units - they of course had none worth mentioning.
How is this way of strategic thinking going to be simulated in Med game, remains to be seen. What geographic areas should be on the map anyway? Up to Bay of Biscay? Black Sea? Morocco Coast? Personally I think Med game can be made REAL interesting only in hypothetic scenarios (ie. no Barbarossa, Gibraltar taken by Germans etc)
OTOH, NA86 was kinda strategically very important theatre,and the fact that it didn't happen in real life is no deterrent at all for us wargamers in trying to make it happen in virtual life
Now that I see this post, maybe you were right Pasternakski, nitpicking has begun
O.
-
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:13 am
- Location: South-central PA
Include ALL of the Mediterranean. Including the entire North African coast, from Morocco to Palestine. Also, include Spain and Gibraltar, Southern France as well as Sardinia. All of Italy including Sicily and while were at it, how about Greece and Crete.Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
How is this way of strategic thinking going to be simulated in Med game, remains to be seen. What geographic areas should be on the map anyway? Up to Bay of Biscay? Black Sea? Morocco Coast? Personally I think Med game can be made REAL interesting only in hypothetic scenarios (ie. no Barbarossa, Gibraltar taken by Germans etc)
Do a complete re-write of the ground combat rules that would allow for some interesting back and forth fighting including the initial thrust (or lack thereof) by the Italians which forced Hitler to come to the aid of Mussolini. Then, there could be Operation Torch, which brings US ground forces in the war. Operation Husky with the invasion of Sicily followed up by the invasion of Italy itself. Will Operation Avalanche, the US 5th Army under General Mark Clark invade Salerno? Can I invade Sardinia? Why not, I've always wanted to do that.
You never know, if it's done right, and they get the re-written ground rules down, oh well, maybe, just maybe. Operation Barbarossa anyone?
Yes, I think a Mediterranean game would great and it could be the steeping stone that could lead to a big and better campaign that was fought in Eastern Europe.
-
- Posts: 261
- Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:24 pm
- Location: East Coast-US
- pasternakski
- Posts: 5567
- Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm
Go ahead and pick them nits. I was just using the technique that worked back when I was three years old in my dysfunctional family - throwing a tantrum to be sure I get my way.Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
For all that I know - Med game is already half-planned, after WITP, while no NA86 is being planned at all, so pasternakski if all goes well, we'll see Med before NA anyway, no need to be so aggressive
...
OTOH, NA86 was kinda strategically very important theatre,and the fact that it didn't happen in real life is no deterrent at all for us wargamers in trying to make it happen in virtual life
Now that I see this post, maybe you were right Pasternakski, nitpicking has begun
O.
NA86 is, of course, a good subject for a game (and, as others have suggested, a thorough remake of WIR would be excellent, as well). I would buy and play it, but I don't think sales would be enough to make it economically viable. I want to keep this Matrix/2by3 bunch around for awhile. I think an extension of the UV engine to the WWII Mediterranean theater has broad appeal among computer gamers and would benefit from being based on an already-existing engine.
What I don't want is Matrix/2by3 resources wasted on side trips and risky experiments while there's still so much to be done right out on Broadway.
Wah! Wah! Wah! I want THAT toy, Mommy! Wah! Wah! Wah!
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
My vote:
MED MED MED MED MED
"Bomb Alley" is a unique game in my memory. Unique because its a game i never played!!!! yet i remember it fondly as at about the time it was available (but soon to be discontinued), i was but a wide eyed kid with little to no income who could only stare hungrilly at the box art of this game as shown by the little SSI catalog phamplet one gets inside another SSI game one has. Stare at it and only be able to imagine what playing it would be like. (especially as at the time, i had yet to experience a "campaign" type wargame on such a scale where one could draw on a pool of assets to form TF's and in effect, "create your own battles". Games like 'Carrier Force' and 'Tigers in the Snow' only covered tactical battles that had already happened with set units and forces....only allowing one to refight the same battle in the hopes of changing the historical outcome and proving what an impressive armchair general (or Admiral) one was
Bomb Alley stuck out for me also because it covered a situation that i had never wargamed and was at the time not as familiar with, as opposed to the subject matter of "Carrier Force" or "Guadalcanal Campaign"
Then again maybe it was just the cover art too.
So bring on Bomb Alley Mark II.......after WitP of course
MED MED MED MED MED
"Bomb Alley" is a unique game in my memory. Unique because its a game i never played!!!! yet i remember it fondly as at about the time it was available (but soon to be discontinued), i was but a wide eyed kid with little to no income who could only stare hungrilly at the box art of this game as shown by the little SSI catalog phamplet one gets inside another SSI game one has. Stare at it and only be able to imagine what playing it would be like. (especially as at the time, i had yet to experience a "campaign" type wargame on such a scale where one could draw on a pool of assets to form TF's and in effect, "create your own battles". Games like 'Carrier Force' and 'Tigers in the Snow' only covered tactical battles that had already happened with set units and forces....only allowing one to refight the same battle in the hopes of changing the historical outcome and proving what an impressive armchair general (or Admiral) one was
Bomb Alley stuck out for me also because it covered a situation that i had never wargamed and was at the time not as familiar with, as opposed to the subject matter of "Carrier Force" or "Guadalcanal Campaign"
Then again maybe it was just the cover art too.
So bring on Bomb Alley Mark II.......after WitP of course
MED! Bomb Alley II!
The only reason I still own an Apple II is to play my ancient copy of Bomb Alley....(now that I can play my Guadalcanal game (UV) on the laptop).......I'll pre-order both WITP and a Med-Bomb Alley II if that will help bring it up to date with the current UV engine....terrific game....thanks Matrix......Bill.
While not disgruntled he was far from gruntled....
Re: MED! Bomb Alley II!
really?Originally posted by Forrest37
The only reason I still own an Apple II is to play my ancient copy of Bomb Alley....(now that I can play my Guadalcanal game (UV) on the laptop).......I'll pre-order both WITP and a Med-Bomb Alley II if that will help bring it up to date with the current UV engine....terrific game....thanks Matrix......Bill.
thats amazing. Until recently i had lugged my vintage Atari-800 system from location to location along with several disk boxes worth of floppies. The most amazing thing was that it was not until this year, 2002 that at long last, the first of my 5.25 floppies began to fail with disk read errors, for some of the earliest thats a shelf life over 20 years!!!!!
I cant even get one of my 3.5inch's to last a year much less that long, and 5.25's were so much flimsier. They knew how to make em then is all i can say.
Sadly, i had to finally get rid of my antique, but the games live on curtasy of my Atari and Apple IIe PC emulators. Actually i have Bomb Alley now but thanks to Matrix i havnt had a chance to play it!!!!!! First Steel Panthers, World at War and now UV.....they dominate the all-too rare times i have to sit down for a multi-hour gaming session.
- SwampYankee68
- Posts: 578
- Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 9:37 am
- Location: Connecticut, U.S.
One for NA 86
"Red Storm Rising" and "Red Phoenix" didn't happen, and they are **** good books. I desperately want a turn- based Modern Naval and Air Combat game to play!!!!
"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!"
Atari XL series - THE SEXIEST PC EVER MADE!
My (second) Apple IIe is sadly mothballed, the wife already dislikes me having two-three PCs and a Mac sitting in my room. I don't really need it anymore as I can play Crusade in Europe and Decision in the Desert in my Nokia Communicator (through the C64 emulator). I wonder if the original WiR was available for C64? Haven't seen it anywhere (I have to play the awful SSG's Russia game).
North Atlantic 86 remake = the next version of Harpoon? Let's do Med first!
--Mikko
My (second) Apple IIe is sadly mothballed, the wife already dislikes me having two-three PCs and a Mac sitting in my room. I don't really need it anymore as I can play Crusade in Europe and Decision in the Desert in my Nokia Communicator (through the C64 emulator). I wonder if the original WiR was available for C64? Haven't seen it anywhere (I have to play the awful SSG's Russia game).
North Atlantic 86 remake = the next version of Harpoon? Let's do Med first!
--Mikko
If you want a WW3 wargame, go play Harpoon.
Harpoon Classic 2002 is free for the GIUK battleset, and $10 for the rest.
A Harpoon 3 trial/demo can be downloaded (although they appear to so paranoid about piracy that they have done some really bizarre things).
Harpoon 4 will supposedly be released in the fall.
Besides, I don't think the UV engine could handle modern warfare well. Modern conflict is extremely short and very brutal. UV's smallest timeslice is a day.
Harpoon Classic 2002 is free for the GIUK battleset, and $10 for the rest.
A Harpoon 3 trial/demo can be downloaded (although they appear to so paranoid about piracy that they have done some really bizarre things).
Harpoon 4 will supposedly be released in the fall.
Besides, I don't think the UV engine could handle modern warfare well. Modern conflict is extremely short and very brutal. UV's smallest timeslice is a day.
I love it when a plan comes together.