How to execute the right hook?

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21

Post Reply
GBS
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:14 am
Location: Southeastern USA

How to execute the right hook?

Post by GBS »

I just can't get Leningrad to work in my favor and I must be the least effective user of panzer units on this forum. I am now trying the right hood that has been spoken of on here after butting my head against the wall at Leningrad to no effect. I can seem to get much out of the panzers corps after the first 4 or 5 turns without the support of infantry. THis last attempt I was trying to go to the right of the mountain range. I always run low on supply and the MPs drop percipitously which combined with the constant appearence of pesky russian units slows them to a crawl.
What is my most glaring flaw? Why not send 18th Army to take Talinn and Pzkov and send all others to the east and take as many VPs as possible and ignore Leningrad all togeather? Advice needed.
"It is well War is so terrible lest we grow fond of it." -
R. E. Lee

"War..god help me, I love it so." - G. Patton
ComradeP
Posts: 6992
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:11 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by ComradeP »

With the current terrain limitations, I don't think taking Leningrad is going to happen against a competent Soviet opponent. With a right hook, you mostly make your supply situation impossible whilst it isn't more than a temporary inconvenience to the Soviets (anything that doesn't completely isolate Leningrad is a temporary inconvenience).
SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer
User avatar
dwesolick
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:33 am
Location: Colorado

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by dwesolick »

Taking Leningrad is a major bear, as others have pointed out. I'm in July 42 of my GC and have put all of my eggs in the AG North basket. Direct assault of Leningrad is impossible, of course, so I've thrown everything I can scrape together into a push south of Lake Ilmen in order to swing around (right hook) and isolate Leningrad. I've broken through Soviet lines south of the lake and have surrounded numerous units, but I see that I will have to push east to that first rail junction (forget the town's name) so that I can follow the rail line back up (NW) towards Lake Ladoga. Hopefully this will ensure decent supply, but it's going to take everything I've got. If I don't make it, my campaign is doomed...and I'm playing against the AI!!!
"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur
Pawsy
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:17 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Pawsy »

You might be able to pull off an operational surprise. Mass your assault force ready to assault. Start a second force on a large attack to the south where the Soviets are weakest. A feint. You should see some thinning out of the line to prop up the new salient. At that point unleash your assault.
Shadow Empire beta tester
valor and victory beta tester
DW2 DLC beta tester
User avatar
Q-Ball
Posts: 7314
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Q-Ball »

I think Comrade P is right against a human; Leningrad is untakeable, barring any game changes. Swamps are basically inpenetrable, and there is a nice amount of swamp protecting Leningrad's rear.

Against the AI, though, I did isolate Leningrad on the first try, by driving straight west from Pskov, and turning left around Lake Ilmen. The AI seems to want to set-up a stack of units on the Volkhov, and this move completely flanks this line on the Volkhov, which is not assailable from the front. There is enough light-woods terrain to clear most with Panzers, though you need infantry to make the last leg to Lake Ladoga.

The other bonus of this route, is that it pockets piles of units; for me, something like 500-600K worth of troops.

I didn't use extra Panzers other than PzGrp 4, but I did shovel-in alot of extra infantry. (18th and 16th Army were both pretty maxed)

Anyway, against the AI that plan works, but against a human, they would just put a few Rifle divisions in the swamp, and that would stop any progress.
Pawsy
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:17 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Pawsy »

Should have mentioned that you need to think in terms of operational manoeuvre. AG level maybe needed.
Shadow Empire beta tester
valor and victory beta tester
DW2 DLC beta tester
Davekhps
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:09 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Davekhps »

I managed to do it in 1942 on a normal Axis 41-45 CG.
 
The first year, I went with the typical assigned AGN units, rounded south of Lake Ilmen, but didn't penetrate too far east.  Turned north and got bogged down in a progressively smaller arrowhead east of the Volkhov.  Never made it closer to the Finnish border than ten or so hexes, IIRC.  Turn or two before the mud hit, I began pulling back from the advance, ceding a lot of territory east of Ilmen to create a defensible frontline for the winter.
 
Once I survived the winter (which I did, quite well... I've got to write up a winter AAR for the Axis, I really didn't have nearly as much trouble with the winter as others have reported), I redeployed the 2nd Panzer Army to join the 4th Panzer Army and 18th Army to push east of Ilmen (with 16th Army screening from the Baltic through Pskov and Novgorod).  After a long, lonnng campaign, I managed to link up with the Finns in September 1942, and then spend the rest of the mud and winter reducing the now-unsupplied Leningrad pocket.
 
It was hard going, it was nearly World War I trench warfare at times-- no deep panzer pockets up north-- but with overhwelming force and pateince the effort was successful.
 
Alas, this was against the AI.  In PBEM, there's no way a human would let me get away with it-- not only was the rest of the Eastern Front largely quiet as I pushed my forces north, both my flanks encircling Leningrad and south through Velikie Luki were thinly held.  The AI kept the pressure on, but nowhere near enough to distract me.
 
(Which, BTW, held true for the rest of my CG.  Once you make it through 1941 and the winter, the Axis are in a very strong position against the Soviets in 1942-- the Russian AI begins to break down in dealing with your earlier advances, and at a certain point doesn't even bother with anything but local counterattacks, i.e. there's nothing approaching the scale of that 1941 winter counterattack left in that GC.  Leningrad in 1942, Moscow in 1943, and I'm about to launch my war-winning drive to take Stalingrad in 1944...)
CharonJr
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18 am

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by CharonJr »

I am at pretty much the same point in my AAR and realised that I will need more infantry up there. I am at turn 11 and I think I would be happy if I can isolate Leningrad by turn 12/13.

Even the AI will realise that it has to try and keep the line to Leningrad open and sends lots of units to bolster this line.

I think that armor does help with the initial push, but gets fairly useless afterwards.

A feint elsewhere might be a good idea.

CharonJr
alfonso
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Palma de Mallorca

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by alfonso »

I think it is not necessary to reach Lake Ladoga with the Germans. All you have to do to isolate Leningrad is to link with the Finns at any point of the Soviet-Finn frontier east of the Lake. As the Soviets have to defend a lot of hexes and the terrain east of the river Volkhov is OK for tanks, the operation is doable, at least against the AI.

Image
Attachments
GermanT8mod.jpg
GermanT8mod.jpg (198.46 KiB) Viewed 99 times
User avatar
karonagames
Posts: 4701
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am
Location: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by karonagames »

Consider using HQ buildup when your panzers run into the supply Black Hole east of the Volkhov(sp?) River.
It's only a Game

User avatar
henri51
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by henri51 »

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think it is not necessary to reach Lake Ladoga with the Germans. All you have to do to isolate Leningrad is to link with the Finns at any point of the Soviet-Finn frontier east of the Lake. As the Soviets have to defend a lot of hexes and the terrain east of the river Volkhov is OK for tanks, the operation is doable, at least against the AI.

Alfonso don't forget that some of those hexes E of Leningrad are ports.

Henrin
ComradeP
Posts: 6992
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:11 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by ComradeP »

As long as a link up with the Finns on the Svir is established, all ports should no longer work as they're not connected to the Soviet supply grid.

The main problem with the right hook is the huge open flank, which means you're in big trouble if it fails.
SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer
GBS
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:14 am
Location: Southeastern USA

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by GBS »

I finally got a minor victory, which is good enough for me, by not even going after the VPs around Leningrad. I let one Army occupy Leningrad and sent everyone else east.
"It is well War is so terrible lest we grow fond of it." -
R. E. Lee

"War..god help me, I love it so." - G. Patton
Davekhps
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:09 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Davekhps »

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think it is not necessary to reach Lake Ladoga with the Germans. All you have to do to isolate Leningrad is to link with the Finns at any point of the Soviet-Finn frontier east of the Lake. As the Soviets have to defend a lot of hexes and the terrain east of the river Volkhov is OK for tanks, the operation is doable, at least against the AI.
This.

Essentially, I think this is the basic decision for an Axis GC.

1. Do I try for a quick strike at Leningrad itself to grab its urban port? Yes or no?

The upside is a quick capture. The downside is that even after half a dozen "Road to Leningrad" games I was unable to beat the Soviets to their defensive line. You really only have a brief window to do this-- 5 to 7 turns, max. After that, you're almost certainly not going to break that line around the city. You may have better luck steering some of your Army Group Center forces to the north to aid in the advance, but that means you'll also weaken your center thrust accordingly.

2. Do I try for a quick strike at the Ladoga ports? Yes or no?

You'll need more time to do this, but you'll also have more time-- probably all 17 pre-mud turns. Trouble here is you run the risk of bogging down in the Volkhov swamps, and you now have THREE objectives to take versus one.

3. Do I try for a long campaign against the Finnish border? Yes or no?

You might be able to do this in one season, but I admit that in my GC I needed both 1941 and 1942 to reach the Finnish border. The downside here is that you're very far to the east-- supply is bad, your flank is long. The upside is that you only have to reach the Finnish border, and once done, you'll obtain the mother of all pockets. Another factor to consider is that you'll probably require another panzer or infantry army to do a sweep this big, regardless of whether you attempt it in 1941 or plan on a two-stage campaing to resolve in 1941.

Against the AI, I think your best bet is option #3. It'll take the most time and patience, but success for a decent player is pretty much assured.

In PBEM, however, #3 is probably suicidal, and #1 is challenging (a human will probably start reinforcing/fortifying Leningrad from turn 1 whereas the AI seems to wait those first few turns). #2 is perhaps the most neutral option.

That said, against a human being, I might not go for Leningrad at all-- instead launch a feint in that direction. It's the most rewarding early game win, and taking it by 1942 is perhaps essential for any Axis victory, but I just don't think it may be a nut a human can crack vs. another a human.
User avatar
Klydon
Posts: 2300
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:39 am

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by Klydon »

Leningrad is a very tough target and something the Axis commander has to consider from an early stage in the campaign because you have to be spot on in your tactics to be able to take it from a human player. Sacrifices will be required from other fronts to make this happen. The Germans must establish their strategic objective before the first tank rolls across the frontier and then stick with it. They did not do this during the actual campaign and it cost them big.

First off, AGN is not big enough to take Leningrad without help. You will need to send a good number of reenforcements to get the job done. Next, while the area is not good "tank country" the mechanized units are absolutely required, especially in the early going, in order to make it possible for the infantry to get there quicker. Mech units blaze the path ahead and the infantry follow the next turn. You need to get this done at least twice and get a lot of troops up there in a hurry. Getting there is not really the issue: getting there in sufficient strength fast enough is the trick.

You also have to be ready to take chances with the river to the east of Leningrad. You need to cut off any additional troops coming into the area and potentially catch as many as you can before they get dug in.

The rewards for taking Leningrad are big in game terms. You free the Finns who can take over a good chunk of the front and do not get hammered by the first winter. You take away the huge area that anchors the Russian right and you also do some damage to your opponents frame of mind. (Personally, I would like to see them come out with an adjustment to the Russian National moral that it goes down by 5 for the loss of Leningrad and by 5 for the loss of Moscow). After a victory in that area, you basically join AGC and finish the job on Moscow and from there, it should mostly be a case of rolling his line to the south and that should pretty much be it.

Now, having said all this, you do need to consider a back up plan should the Russian player just throw the kitchen sink into the Leningrad area. I think IF the Russians throw mass troops into the area there, the Germans will have issues, but that should also mean there are opportunities elsewhere. The Germans masking off Leningrad (ideally along the Luga river line) and doing something else is entirely feasible as well, but my thing as the Germans is I would prefer to capture Leningrad.
CharonJr
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18 am

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by CharonJr »

Just managed to isolate Leningrad on turn 12 here (GC), but no way I could have pulled this off vs. a human opponent, my defensive line was streched to the max.

In the end an armored unit made the link up with the Finns after an assist from a mot division (got rid of the fortified zone), so mobile units have its uses up there, but then I dropped about 500 tons of fuel at 1 armored corps and the armored division finally making the linkup only had 6 MP ;)

Going in with infantry would have been the "better" option, but would have taken me till turn 13/14 I think.

CharonJr
randallw
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 pm

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by randallw »

Defending Leningrad against the computer I was starting to get nervous; it was shoving infantry from the west and within 3 hexes when the mud then winter arrived.
 
On a previous attempt to play the campaign I allowed Leningrad to be isolated, and the computer was chopping up the defense since I could not fly in enough supplies to keep the defenders going.  Much embarassment.
alfonso
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Palma de Mallorca

RE: How to execute the right hook?

Post by alfonso »

ORIGINAL: henri51

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think it is not necessary to reach Lake Ladoga with the Germans. All you have to do to isolate Leningrad is to link with the Finns at any point of the Soviet-Finn frontier east of the Lake. As the Soviets have to defend a lot of hexes and the terrain east of the river Volkhov is OK for tanks, the operation is doable, at least against the AI.

Alfonso don't forget that some of those hexes E of Leningrad are ports.

Henrin

Yes, they are isolated ports.
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”