Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
I seriously doubt anyone expected this (or said) was going to be a "beer & pretzels" game - given the history of WiTP & WiTP:AE, I would expect nothing less than the most detailed computer wargame of the Eastern Front every put in front of serious gamers.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
If I drink beer and eat pretzels, can I still play it "in depth"?
KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
I think we all know that the UI will not be improved that much because the effort required would be enormous.
But as an alternative, I wish the manual could be extensively updated on a regular basis to offset the weaknesses of the UI -- in effect, make the manual FULLY COMPREHENSIVE so the game could function without the daily patrolling of the forum.
But as an alternative, I wish the manual could be extensively updated on a regular basis to offset the weaknesses of the UI -- in effect, make the manual FULLY COMPREHENSIVE so the game could function without the daily patrolling of the forum.
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: balto
I think we all know that the UI will not be improved that much because the effort required would be enormous.
But as an alternative, I wish the manual could be extensively updated on a regular basis to offset the weaknesses of the UI -- in effect, make the manual FULLY COMPREHENSIVE so the game could function without the daily patrolling of the forum.
Considering that they have stated somewhere that several games are being considered based on this same game engine, it might help if they do optimize some parts of the UI going forward. i.e. for just a single game, it wouldn't really be worth the effort, but for several games, it could help to smooth out the rough edges.
Member since January 2007 (as Gray_Lensman)
Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)
Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)
Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
- PyleDriver
- Posts: 5905
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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
I know alot of people refer to the 41 campaign as GC...Really the GC will be the entire WIE. Hope I live that long...
Jon Pyle
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RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
My two cents about the UI.
First the list view with the all units and various possible filters.
Please add function "select and center on unit" or something. So you could select a division, hq, attachment whatever and with that it would close the list view and center on the selected unit on the map.
Also i would like to suffle attachments around a bit easier. Now its a pain to move those.
Like a selecting division and its attachment batallion a the gates of Sevastopol and say to that battalion that i want you to go to division X wich is for example on the gates of Leningrad. Because of the distance it could take more than one turn before the batallion arrives at division X near the Leningrad.
First the list view with the all units and various possible filters.
Please add function "select and center on unit" or something. So you could select a division, hq, attachment whatever and with that it would close the list view and center on the selected unit on the map.
Also i would like to suffle attachments around a bit easier. Now its a pain to move those.
Like a selecting division and its attachment batallion a the gates of Sevastopol and say to that battalion that i want you to go to division X wich is for example on the gates of Leningrad. Because of the distance it could take more than one turn before the batallion arrives at division X near the Leningrad.
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
any way to cycle thru units in the stacks? I would love to be able to rotate units and put whatever one on the top-Just hoping is all
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
Yes Erik, I agree I tend to write with a dash of hyperbole. Makes for more provocative reading I say.
What I will say is that the more I play, the greater my admiration for what is clearly an incredible engine.
But for the express purpose of simulating the entire campaign - including controlling the air war and support units - I would still maintain that the UI makes it an unrealistic proposition for me, at least. We will see how many players complete a 41-45 campaign PBEM in time. Probably lots of it.
For me, smaller scenarios will remain the way forward for now.
I also respect the support and willingness to engage from the likes of you and Joel and testers. Cant complain about that.
What I will say is that the more I play, the greater my admiration for what is clearly an incredible engine.
But for the express purpose of simulating the entire campaign - including controlling the air war and support units - I would still maintain that the UI makes it an unrealistic proposition for me, at least. We will see how many players complete a 41-45 campaign PBEM in time. Probably lots of it.
For me, smaller scenarios will remain the way forward for now.
I also respect the support and willingness to engage from the likes of you and Joel and testers. Cant complain about that.
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
What I would benefit from though, is a 3-4 page how to guide: "How do I do this? You do that", type of thing. If they could summarise what needs to be done each turn and what can be done each turn and then quickly show me what to click, then this game will be a real winner on my PC. At the end of that, refer me to another guide for a "how to delve deeper" experience.
THIS!!!
I have a professional bias here, becuase some of my work involves trying to get this sort of thing done (sadly for things far less entertaining).
There is SO much detail involved ~ which is great LONG term ~ that it is somewhat overwhelming initially to know what is important. The manual gives good factual info on how the system works but what it DOESN'T do too well is put it in context for the average user.
Suppose there's a 'system' the experienced testers do. Let's imagine it's something like check supply status, check command levels, check distance to HQ, allocate support etc etc.
Now they have learned that that is an effective way to play the game. SHARE IT!!
A section right at the start after how to set up a game blah blah would be brilliant, because you could link those actions to the sections in the manual.
Then you'd have both a technical guide AND a "guide written from the perspective of the person in the chair".
I have already posted elsewhere how much I appreciate a proper manual with a game (so rare these days), so don't take this as anything other than respecting that and saying with not TOO much effort the effective utility of the manual would be improved ten-fold for the beginning player. More experienced players would delve more deeply anyway, and the manual supports that as is.
Cheers
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: raizer
any way to cycle thru units in the stacks? I would love to be able to rotate units and put whatever one on the top-Just hoping is all
Why would you want to do this when you can clearly see them in the side panel?
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am
- Location: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
The manual gives good factual info on how the system works but what it DOESN'T do too well is put it in context for the average user.
We are curently proofing dlazlov66's "operational boot camp" which is specifically written to explain the "why" in addition to the "how" things are done in the game. It is about 250pp at the moment, and the testers are sending Don crazy (well me mostly!) to get things added.
The plan is to get a pdf file in an easily accessible download location.
It's only a Game
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
I have to say that the UI is pretty good compared to other monster games. It is easy to pick up and play. That does not mean it cannot be better.
I too have to agree with many of the things the OP said.
I know no other game that selects units the way WITE does. I would really love to have the industry standard here (left click: unit on top, double left click: full stack, several left clicks: cycle single units. Why change something that's not broken?)
Also, we definitely need more pop-ups. Where something like SUB / ADD / etc. is displayed, you should always get a pop-up explaining what happens there, especially in such a game.
I only have one thing that really annoys me though, and that is the distribution of support units. I don't understand that system at all so far and find it very counterintuitive. Please change it?
I too have to agree with many of the things the OP said.
I know no other game that selects units the way WITE does. I would really love to have the industry standard here (left click: unit on top, double left click: full stack, several left clicks: cycle single units. Why change something that's not broken?)
Also, we definitely need more pop-ups. Where something like SUB / ADD / etc. is displayed, you should always get a pop-up explaining what happens there, especially in such a game.
I only have one thing that really annoys me though, and that is the distribution of support units. I don't understand that system at all so far and find it very counterintuitive. Please change it?
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
The manual gives good factual info on how the system works but what it DOESN'T do too well is put it in context for the average user.
We are curently proofing dlazlov66's "operational boot camp" which is specifically written to explain the "why" in addition to the "how" things are done in the game. It is about 250pp at the moment, and the testers are sending Don crazy (well me mostly!) to get things added.
The plan is to get a pdf file in an easily accessible download location.
Well that's terrific news, thanks very much. [&o]
I'm a bit surprised it needs to be as long as the manual, however. I'd have thought a 'flow chart' of sorts showing the flow of actions to take each turn, then an explanation of the why/what with links to the relevant sections of the manual (which already has the 'how') would suffice (yeah, I do this sort of stuff professionally, so I'm biased [8D]).
Not that I'm trying to discourage the more comprehensive one. Will look forward to it greatly.
Cheers
- karonagames
- Posts: 4701
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am
- Location: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
I'm a bit surprised it needs to be as long as the manual,
Don is very thorough, and has done some parts in small "baby" steps which take alot of space, and I have asked him to look at some of the broader thought processes that players may need apply with some aspects of the game.
It's only a Game
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
I'm a bit surprised it needs to be as long as the manual,
Don is very thorough, and has done some parts in small "baby" steps which take alot of space, and I have asked him to look at some of the broader thought processes that players may need apply with some aspects of the game.
Know how that goes. Once you go down to the absolute 'step by step' with screen shots it can get big, quickly.
A higher level overview would probably be great for the 'quick reference of what to do each turn', with people using the really detailed one less and less as they gain familiarity.
Being new to the game and quite a bit of experience at writing process mapping/technical guides etc, be happy to be a test dummy for you. Sometimes those really familiar with the material can overlook things simply because of that familiarity. Have time off over Christmas/New Year, too, so am looking to play anyway. I have MS Visio so could do an over-arching decision/process map for you based on it, too. Let me know if that might help.
Certainly won't be offended if not!
Very impressed with the support. Thanks to all involved.
Cheers
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: fsp
I know no other game that selects units the way WITE does. I would really love to have the industry standard here (left click: unit on top, double left click: full stack, several left clicks: cycle single units. Why change something that's not broken?)
Industry standard? No such animal.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: Mynok
ORIGINAL: fsp
I know no other game that selects units the way WITE does. I would really love to have the industry standard here (left click: unit on top, double left click: full stack, several left clicks: cycle single units. Why change something that's not broken?)
Industry standard? No such animal.
It might not be a defacto industry standard, but it's fast becoming a sensible industry normal, which ought to be accepted as a default industry standard.
Member since January 2007 (as Gray_Lensman)
Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)
Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)
Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
Normal for what? Standard for what? It makes no sense to talk about standards without specifying the domain. "Industry" is so broad a term as to be utterly meaningless.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
most of us know exactly what you mean gandalf. Well said.
RE: Probably gonna stir up a hornets nest...
ORIGINAL: jomni
ORIGINAL: raizer
any way to cycle thru units in the stacks? I would love to be able to rotate units and put whatever one on the top-Just hoping is all
Why would you want to do this when you can clearly see them in the side panel?
simple-say Im playing the campaign game with a ton of units-I see stacks with ample movement points and I end up clicking on them over and over, only to see that they are HQ units with the mps and not the combat units. I want to rotate units in the stacks so I can put the HQs on the top and stop this endless clicking of units on the map. I can also rotate my tank units that have addtl mps left, I can assign units to the top of stacks, so I can cut down on the needed clicking on units and looking in the left panel-maybe its just me, but the less looking in the side panels the better. Here is another use-say I move an armor unit a bunch and move it onto a stack of 2 other fresh units. Maybe I would like to put the exhausted, used up unit on the bottom, and have the fresh units on the tops-or the hqs. Then if I save the game, I can come back later next day or 2 and have them the way I want, instead on clicking on stacks to look at side panels. The game is fluid, I like to put fresh combat units on top, thats all, maybe Im a noob and a rookie at this but Ive been playing wargames for 30 years and got my feet wet with computer games in Atomics V4V series and this function, of having units you want on the top of stacks, has always been available...telling me I dont need it dont make me fell any better