1944-1945 Scenario questions

[PenCapChew]

Hello. I recently was able to get some time to actually play some WITE and had some questions regarding the late war scenarios. I am particularly fond of "Operation Bagration" operation as the Soviets, so I loaded the 44-45 scenario to test a few things. The operation historically started with 3 phases, the Vitebsk-Orsha, Mogilev, and Bobruysk offensives which were designed at breakthroughs in order to facilitate the strategic objective of annihilating AGC. The following is some background information on the Vitebsk/Orsha portion:

"The operation was conducted by the 1st Baltic Front and 3rd Belorussian Front against the positions of Army Group Centre's northern army, Third Panzer Army, and the northern flank of Fourth Army.

In the north, the 1st Baltic Front pushed the IX corps over the Dvina, while encircling the LIII Corps in the city of Vitebsk by 25 June. To the south, the 3rd Belorussian Front drove through the VI Corps, shattering it. Vitebsk was taken by 27 June, the entire LIII Corps of 30,000 men being destroyed.

The 3rd Belorussian Front simultaneously opened operations against Fourth Army's XXVII Corps holding Orsha and the main Moscow - Minsk road. Despite a tenacious German defense, Orsha was liberated by 26 June, and the 3rd Belorussian Front's mechanized forces were able to penetrate far into the German rear, reaching the Berezina River by 28 June."

I have played this scenario multiple times as the Soviets and as a result I am never able to duplicate the relative historical advances of the 1st Baltic Front and 3rd Belorussian. I have tried:

1. Hasty attacks in hopes of conserving mp's in order to keep moving and attacking
2. Deliberate attacks w/ artillery selected in order to cause massive casualties to German defenders.
3. I attack with infantry first to make hex gaps so armor/mech forces can slip through

No matter what, the German forces (in this case the 3rd Pz Army) are able to retreat and form a relatively cohesive line. How can I as the Soviets maximize my attack to achieve historical results (take Vitebsk, Orsha, and destroy the German 53rd Corps at the end of turn 1)?

[ComradeP]

Taking Vitebsk and surroundings should be perfectly possible, but trapping German forces is tricky. I haven't played the scenario as the Soviets yet, so I'm not sure what the best way to achieve a breakthrough is. I'll point a tester with experience as the Soviets in 1944 this way.

[barkman44]

looks like the ai' commanding gen.is diobeying hitlers stand fast order!

[Flaviusx]

I've been able to take Orsha and pocket Vitebsk on turn 1. But due to the mechanics of isolation, actually taking Vitebsk on turn 1 is unlikely, you need to wait a turn to starve the Germans.

[amatteucci]

Just out of curiosity I opened up the 1944-45 Campaign scenario and tried to liberate Vitebsk and Orsha. In five minutes of pushing counters I achieved the situation shown below.

Please notice that this is just a test, it's not intended to be a suggestion for a decent opening move, well, it isn't even an opening move, since I only moved a few units just to see whether a local breaktrough and exploitation was possible.

Bottom line, I found it was relatively simple to take both Vitebsk and Orsha. Maybe I was lucky with the die rolls and, maybe, a semi-competent German Player will be able to retake both these objectives on his turn, anyway IMHO this shows that the order of magnitude of the advance possible in the game is comparable to what actually happened.

[Flaviusx]

Nicely done. Still prefer to pocket Vitebsk, though. [;)]

[Hard Sarge]

as was said, I try for pockets, this is a first try, and not sure what rules, or condictions I should be trying to follow

trying to cross the river line, ruins any real deep pockets, and I got really nailed with some interdiction attacks on the Crops that was suppost to clear the back side of the 2nd target hex, but....

main target is surrounded, 2nd target is controlled but not really taken, and expect it to change hands on the GE turn, but, it can't hold it

also, I didn't do anything on the flanks, so the AI is free to move much then it should in a normal game

[amatteucci]

With such an avatar you can say whathever you want about the correct way to defeat fascist occupants in Belorussia and I would not dare to contradict you! [:D]

Jokes apart, as I said, it was just a test, if I had to actually plan for the whole Operation Bagration I would have probably done something different.

[Hard Sarge]

I am not sure from the SU side, but I think I got the Ge Corps taken out, what does not fall at the start of the next turn, is chopped up pretty good

as expected, the 2nd target changed hands, but, is a sweep aside by the follow up troops

which now that I got a idea on how the movement and river is going to effect what I am trying to, think I could do that better

in fact for this idea, it may just be better to try and force the troops out of the first target (they help control the river line) shove them south and back, and then cut in behind them

[Hard Sarge]

that is 10 Divs trapped, 2 major cities really to fall, the river line crossed, and while there is a line, the line sucks, and is going to shatter, and is opened to better pockets

[PenCapChew]

Thank you all for your responses. I am amazed at the breakthroughs you were able to attain. How did you do manage to accomplish that? What was your ratio of deliberate vs. hasty attack? If one does hasty attacks, the artillery element of the Soviets is wasted. The issue I believe is the OOB isn't not exactly placed in its correct geographical locations. In my case, take the front starting in the north from Polotsk all the way to Mogilev. Elements of the 205th ID of the Wehrmacht 16th Army were present approx. 30 miles east of Polotsk in the northern sector. Opposite of the 205th ID was the 83rd Rifle Corps of the 4th Shock Army. That is the only applicable unit from army group north, yet there are 2 divisions from AGN between the Polotsk-Mogilev line in WITE. The following is a map of the OOB in order to illustrate my point.

The Russian and Soviet divisions are not properly aligned according to my sources, as the 6th Guards army needs to be shifted south to be east of Polotsk and the 43rd Army needs to be shifted south as well, adjacent to the 6th Guards (right below it).

[Flaviusx]

The artillery is needed only to crack the lines and clear the forts. Once past that, you exploit with hasty attacks, and brush aside whatever Germans have retreated and preferably force them to retreat into nice, tidy pockets.

There is no set ratio of hasty to deliberate attacks as such: you use as many as you need to punch the holes and create the exploitation opportunities.

[amatteucci]

Soviet standard practice was to use Rifle units (supported by large artillery concentrations and regiment/brigade sized armoured formations) to open a breakthough and Tank and Mechanized Corps to exploit it. So you should (but it's not a "rule") use deliberate attacks to break open the enemy defensive line and hasty attacks to mop up/push enemy units encountered in the exploitation phase. As Flavio said, the large artillery units are supposed to help the formation of a breakthrough they cannot support the mobile forces exploiting the gap.
And, speaking about gaps, the breakthrough has to be a 'clean' one. Tank Corps commanders, especially in 1942-43, always worried that the Rifle forces were not able to to obtain a definite breakthough and that their armoured units were to be committed to finish opening the gap and not simply to exploit it.

Having said this, I concur that matching the historical performance of the Red Army during the opening phases of Operation Bagration isn't that easy. If we look at this map (detailing the operations of the 5th Army between Vitebsk and Orsha):



we see that we should be able to reach the Berezina river with the 3rd Mechanized Corps by the end of the first move.

BTW, I presume that the misalignment that PenCapChew speaks of is caused by the presence at start (in the scenario) of the 51st Army, between the 43th and the 39th Armies. AFAIK the 51st and 2nd Guards Armies, coming from Crimea and the Ukraine, were added later to Bagramian's forces and were not present in the theatre of operation from June 22nd.

[PenCapChew]

That's another great map amatteucci. Does anyone know if errors in starting OOB locations constitute a patch down the road? This scenario could perhaps use a 4 day turn 1, much like the Road to Minsk scenario uses in order to simulate the big advances of the Russians in the opening phases of Bagration.

[ComradeP]

Errors in OOB will be fixed later on. The 1944 scenario was the least checked scenario in terms of OOB, and changes were still being made days before release. Since release, the focus has been mostly on smaller improvements and bug fixes, but the OOB's are also being looked at.

[PyleDriver]

Well Pen, this is where were at. Is this game perfect, no, is it great yes. Joel is one of a kind, one great listener. Guys, this game with your inputs can only get better. I suggest just give your suggestions in a nice tone, not saying you had a bad tone Pen, others have...