a good point from CCS

[Andrew Williams]

and what did he say... or is it a big secret?

[STIENER]

well i always figured most of the stuff here was a big secret most of the time.......just kidding [;)] ..........im sure Oddball and steve wont mind if i put down our PTIVATE convesation [:)].......

i said.........
ORIGINAL: STIENER

hi oddball........
about the only question i finally got an answer to was about the king tiger data vs Fireflys.the rest of theses posts have either been ignored or not answered.all of these issued effect game play drastically. CCS, matrix froms and MSN are places where i have talked to or had these following issues discussed.

1]that mortors take out a/t guns [ one of the assets that we need to counter tanks ] with ease at any range, with just a few rds. mortors imobilize tanks very frequently [ totally unrealistic ], mortors take out guns on tanks [ totally unrealistic ] .......
are you going to look into this stuff?

2]panther tanks and jag4's that cant hit the side of 2 or 3 story buildings from 200m.....its amazing how many times they miss the damn buildings..short rounds..wide rounds...its amazing...... it appears to be all tanks from my experiences, and at any ranges. are you guys going to look into this?

3] i had a wolverine take out 2 panthers at 1000m [ he was at one end of the map the cats at the other ] with 1 shot 1 kill....one after the other......theres something seriously wrong with the data or accuracy or some damn thing. the more players i talk to the more that players are saying the vehicle data is messed up...there just not bothering to post.....too much 1 shot 1 kill at long ranges.......shermans etc winning tank duels hands down against panthers and MK 4's.
are we going to look at this kind of stuff?

4] the inf still gets a shot taken at them and they turn around and run back across open ground.

5] mortors when in intial deploy ALWAYS move and reposition themselves and thus wont fire.
Oddball said

Hey Steiner,

As always thanks for the insightful feedback. Sorry we may have missed some of your posts. Wasn't our intent to ignore them.

I'll reply to your feedback inline:

RE: #1] We've actually already made changes to this several times over the course of the various updates. We'd certainly be glad to look at it again. Steve any additional input on this topic? See Steiners PM quoted at the bottom of this message.

RE: #2] The data design is Steve's and he's intimately knowledgeable about it whereas my knowledge of it as purely anecdotal from doing 50-100 hours of testing on this build. The last time you brought this up we discussed it, he checked the values and didn't find anything out of line with his research. That doesn't mean there still couldn't be an aspect of it that needs tweaking. I'll have to let him respond to the reasoning behind the data for this topic.

RE: #3] Same response as #2 although I don't recall seeing a post about it. It must've gotten buried in the "new posts" filtering for both me and Steve.

RE: #4] Girlie soldiers - We've addressed this several times and feel we have a good balance. However we'd be glad to have another look at it for you.

RE: #5] Recently Steve made some adjustments to crewed weapons and set-up and I believe it hasn't been in an update until v.21b. So you might get that update and check it to be sure it's still an issue. The reason Steve had made the tweaks was based on a report that myself and Gen_Jack had made during testing of v.21b about MG's repositioning. Especially MG42's. Particularly noticeable there since the long set-up time renders them useless. This was the first time we were seeing this issue or have any reports of it. So the idea that the mortar teams are also repositioning is not outside the realm of possibility but is in fact the first time we're hearing about it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Thanks for taking the time to bring ALL of these issues to our attention. Again sorry you didn't get the response you were looking for in a more timely manner. I hope between my response and any Steve has to offer we'll address all your concerns.

Steve said
Stiener,

Thanks for your feedback. Jim has passed the whole list along to me and I will take a look at each point.

then steve said again

Right now I have asked our internal testing to team to run some tests along the lines you mentioned and they'll report the results of the trials. So we'll have some numbers to look at as we decide what changes are needed, if any.

Some things, like mortar effectiveness, are subjective enough that it is impossible to please everyone. I have almost decided that it will be 'right' when everyone hates it.

Other things, like the Wolverine vs. Panther at 1000m, are much more cut and dry.


so here we are Steve is going to look at and make some changes to the tank VS tank.....i dont see how he cant find that data ascue..........

[STIENER]

More Info from Steve on issues.......i dont agree on some of his findings......your thoughts Men?
see below....

Stiener,

As we discussed, here's a summary of the test results we did with the latest version of the game:

In testing with 3 x medium mortars firing at an AT gun, on average it takes a total of about 15 mortar rounds to destroy a medium sized gun (6pdr/57mm/5cm) and about 25 rounds to destroy a larger (17pdr / Pak40) gun. There are cases of 1-3 round kills with a mortar, but there are also cases of 70+ total rounds without a kill. Perhaps the outlier cases are happening too often, but this is pretty subjective.

HE accuracy is somewhat lower for higher velocity guns. In reality, the round to round dispersion and flat trajectory actually makes it harder to put an HE shell on the ground exactly where you want it. I believe the CC 'miss' scattering is not generating the proper amount of dispersion (it should be a lot of range error with the 75/L70 and not much deflection) and it also doesn't take into account the size of an obstacle like a building. One problem with allowing the shell to hit the target building on a 'miss' is that CC's buildings only really have one story -- the top story -- and where in reality a miss could hit the 1st floor and not affect the men on the 3rd floor, this can't happen in the CC engine due to the design. Something to look at for future versions though.

In general, the Wolverine vs. Panther match up doesn't seem to be far off from expected results. The 3 inch gun cannot penetrate the Panther hull front, but it can penetrate the turret front at CC ranges. Accuracy of the 3 inch gun is basically the same as most other weapons, so the data seems fine as far as I can tell. I have not had a chance to do testing to see if the number first round hits is unexpectedly high.

Testing the Sherman vs. Panther match-up shows that the Sherman won't even fire at the Panther from the front without a fire order, and when it does fire the Sherman can empty it's entire ammo load without knocking out the Panther. Sherman vs. Pz IV is a pretty even engagement. The Sherman may have a modest advantage in terms of a faster turret and crew quality (the Pz IVs in LSA are from a training unit) though.

Mortars gunners do reposition sometimes when you give a fire order. This doesn't happen all the time, but it has to do with how the individual soldier evaluates their current cover when their facing changes. It is annoying when it happens, though, and definitely something I want to look for a future update.

end Quote

i replyed to steve with this.......
quote
thanks for the reply and info steve. can i post your reply?

interesting your test on the mortors......perhaps we will leave this for now. i guess im seeing the outlier cases as u suggest.

the HE accuracie is an issue......so u cant fix it easily? the HE accuracie wssnt an issue in WAR and TLD...so what changed is my question. its pretty bad in LSA....to the point of being funny unless its your squad being gunned down by the mg 42 and the tank suppoert u have cant do dick because he cant hit the "barn "

the wolverine vs panther issue is the one shot one kill at extreme ranges.........we see this with all the allied tanks...1 shot 1 kill ALL the time...at any ranges really. if anything the germans should have the edge on accuracy becuase of the optics and generally better crews.ecept for maybe your training unit as u say.
in any tank duel ive been in so far the allied tank gets the 1st shot in 9 out 10 cases.....which just seems wierd..the german tank always seems to hesitate......mince around and take too long to aim and the allied tank gets 1 shot 1 kill.
my last go around with this was a FF vs a tiger 1......the tiger had the drop on the FF and lost the duel. 1 shot 1 kill.

to go along with the above perhaps theres something wrong with what the PC percives as FRONT and SIDE hits??? there is something out of wack here believe us.

i dont no what you guys did with the tank data but its nothing like GJS tank data. i cant for the life of me figure why you would not have simulated that data.......it had good ballance and was play tested till the cows came home.

the mortor crew repositioning happens 8 out 10 times and often more than once in a battle.....it would be great to get it fixed in the future.
end quote

so men what are everyone elses thoughts????

[kojusoki1]

my 2 cents regarding mortars - what was the range, I guess its the most important thing.

[STIENER]

my experiences with mortors taking out guns is at ranges of 200 to 500 m with no LOS

[STIENER]

the newest problem i see is that an MG squad from 2 to 300 m [ and i dont think range is the issue ] can kill an A/T gun or howitzer ! cut down the crew in short order. not real realistic per say.

[Andrew Williams]

A 43 second echo

[STIENER]

huh???? [&:]

[7A_karlmortar]

I think you guys once said here that the values of armor are based on historical facts. That might be true, but have you taken into account that the armor is sloped and theoraticly speaking in CC engine-way "makes it thicker"?
Just wondering.

[xe5]

An MS Access tool for calculating armor slope/effective thickness, and exporting that data to the Vehicles file, has been available since late '98.

[Andrew Williams]

There is also an armour calculator in the workbook for all versions.

[STIENER]

xe5
do you think the tank VS tank duels are realistic / work out basically the way they should in LSA? compared to GJS?