do guns fit in buildings?

[STIENER]

do any guns fit in buildings in LSA??? i havent had any luck with the 75 german IG.
does any one know? [&:]

[Ivan_Zaitzev]

Once I saw a 20mm Flak Gun in a building.

[xe5]

Light Guns (*Teams.txt Column L ; SAI Class# 14) fit in buildings.

Allied
US 57mm AT Gun
6 Pdr AT Gun
Airldg 6 Pdr AT Gun
PL 6 Pdr AT Gun
NL 6 Pdr AT Gun

Axis
2cm FlaK
3.7 cm PaK 36
5cm PaK 38
FJ 2cm FlaK 38
SS 2cm FlaK
SS 3.7 cm PaK 36
SS 5cm PaK 38
LW 2cm FlaK 38
LW 2cm Flakvierling
KM 4.5cm Pak 36(r)

[STIENER]

thanks Xe5 [:)]

[Lieste]

The absence of the 75mm IG is very strange - it is lighter and smaller than almost any other gun listed... the whole rationale was to provide a sensible HE round from a gun similar in size and weight to the 37mm PaK, which itself was lighter than the 20mm FlaK or equivalent AT guns such as the 40mm 2pdr

[STIENER]

good point Lieste.........Oddball? Steve?? perhaps this could be changed in the next patch?

[D.Ilse]

btw, the 4.5cm was known as the 4.5cm PaK 184(r)

[STIENER]

Oddball
the german 75 inf gun still does not fit in buildings. can we remedy that in the next patch please?

[tigercub]

After all the 75mm inf gun is a lot smaller than the pak38 50mm

[Jagdhund]

So Oddball what do you guys use to determine whether a gun can fit in a bldg? Or is it a question of game balance. Doinga little research I found that the IG is lighter than many of the guns.

I.G. 75 880 Lbs
source: http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/germa ... itzer.html

AA 20 mm (single barreled) 906 LBS
AA 20mm (quad barrelled) 2,979 LBS
AA 37 MM 3400 LBS
Etc.
source: http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/germa ... _guns.html

The US M8 airborne 75mm 576-653 lbs. and the pack howitzer carriage M1 had dismantling construction. The carriage was of box trail type, with steel-rimmed wooden wheels. For transportation, the howitzer [M8] M1 or M1A1 on carriage M1 could be broken down into six mule loads, with payload weight between 73 and 107 kg each:
So it too could concievably be set up a house by breaking it down.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M116_howitzer

You might want to relook at this in a future patch or at least enable the IG 75mm and M8 75mm to set up in bldgs as they had featuers (short barrels & wieght) which allowed for this.

My $1.50's worth.

Keep up the great work,

-Jagdhund

[Jagdhund]

Hey I just did some other research in Advanced Squad Leader which I consider a pretty good and balanced gaming system and they allow any AT gun or Infantry gun to set up in a building hex except the AA 88 which was very tall vertically, though the 88 AT gun had a low profile so it was OK. I think this would make guns more effective in the game. Currently out in the open they are still too limited and fragile. I mean if you put on in a building it still had limited LOS and can be easily attacked from within.

ANy chance this might change? Any thoughts on why the limitation in building setup?

Thanks,

-Jag

[STIENER]

Jagdhund........ever get the feeling no one is listening......[8D]

Oddball.......are we going to let the 75 Inf gun fit in buildings??? how about Jagdhunds question??? any answers?

[Priapus1]

I vote for no big guns in buildings unless they are reduced to rubble.

[Jagdhund]

Actually Oddball has been very supportive. IT's just this one question that he hasn't answered and it may be he doesn't have one. I certainly don't feel I'm being ignored

-Jag

[STIENER]

yes.....Oddball IS very supportive.

[xe5]

In case it wasnt previously clear - changing the Specific Artificial Intelligence (SAI) value (column L in *Teams.txt) of larger guns to 14 (Light Gun), from 15 (Gun) or 16 (Heavy Gun), allows them to be positioned in bldgs.

[Q.M]

ORIGINAL: Jagdhund

Actually Oddball has been very supportive. IT's just this one question that he hasn't answered and it may be he doesn't have one. I certainly don't feel I'm being ignored

-Jag

Good questions and your reply in this instance is very well said.

[RD Oddball]

Sorry guys. Missed this thread. I had to ask Steve the rationale he used for this part of the data set. Waiting for his reply.

*EDIT*

Only light guns (according to the team type column) can be placed inside buildings. The following should be able to fit: 6pdr, 57mm, 75mm pack howitzer, 2cm Flak, 37mm IG(f), 37mm Pak, 45mm Pak( r), 50mm Pak.

Steve

If you guys are seeing anything outside of this description please post it in the tech support forums and we'll address it there.

*EDIT 2*

One other thing Steve added is that the 7.5cm IG was classified as medium mostly based on it's caliber but given it's a fairly small (and light gun - in the 1 ton range as the others in the "in building" list are) the enhancement will be considered for future updates.

An aside - Given it's short barrel length I'd hate to be in the room due to the muzzle blast when that thing is fired from within a house. Would probably kill a few brain cells and rattle out your fillings. The other guns on that list generally have barrel lengths that would allow them to be easily positioned so the muzzle blast is mostly outside and directed outside of the room it's being fired from within. Sort of a technicality in context of the discussion and game but something that occurred to me that is a fairly significant difference if you're the one operating one of these guns. And imo should have bearing on the discussion even though it doesn't. We're talking about abstracted game rules not reality.

[CSO_Talorgan]

Somewhere in the back of my mind is a memory of the same discussion taking place when Wacht am Rhein was introduced with Senior Drill as the questioner. I think the final conclusion was that it was down to the physical size of the gun; length and width rather than height.

[Lieste]

I'm not sure... the powder charge is fairly small - about double that in the 20mm FlaK38 - the muzzle velocity of the 5.5 kg shell is only 210m/s - which is around Hvy Mortar velocities (light and medium mortars were still a bit less @ 75-127 m/s).

The 37mm PaK or FlaK uses roughly three times as much propellant, firing an 0.685kg shot at 726m/s. (More propellant, less mass and higher velocity for the APCR round).
The 2pr uses four times as much, firing a 1.22 kg projectile at 792m/s.


Other 'Short Guns' such as the KwK L24 are in a completely different class... 5.8kg shell at 450m/s.

Weapon: Impulse/Muzzle Energy (projectile)/Energy Propellant (est. approx (total))

2cm FlaK38 - 106/96/154
3.7cm PaK - 497/361/785
5cm Pak 38 - 1695/1395/3600
8cm GrW - 439/55/147
7.5cm KwK L24 - 3083/1387/2460
7.5cm Pak 40 - 5388/4267/11000

20mm Oerlikon - 101/84/124
37mm ATG - 674/523/928
40mm Bofors - 918/784/1219
2pr ATG - 966/765/1013
6pr ATG - 2555/2308/4238

7.5cm leIG18 - 1155/243/283