Japanese AMC - are they any use?

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mariandavid
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Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by mariandavid »

Playing against the Allied Ironman AI (beware those who do not know of the terrors created by Andy!) and, since my merchant ship losses are (inevitably) higher than normal, am looking at the 10 or so armed merchant cruisers which the Japanese start the game with. Has anyone found them to be of any use as an AMC? I cannot - therefore aim at converting into AK (some at once) or AR (at the earliest in mid '42). But there may be some secret I do not know that makes them useful as cruisers.
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topeverest
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by topeverest »

The are not really cruisers.  No armor on any of them IIRC.

They are not raiders either.  Use a CL and 4 DD's.  IMHO, they are good hybrid small escorts that prevent surface sub attacks and provide minimal surface capabilities for a minor engagement.  Alot like a PB.

IMHO, I keep them the way they are.
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Mynok »


They have pretty good troop transport abilities.
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spence
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by spence »

By the time Japan got into the war the utility of an armed merchant cruiser as a commerce raider was pretty much past. The German AMCs had pretty well prompted the Allies to arm their merchies and an armed merchie was potentially a very bad thing for the unarmored (not well subdivided) merchant hulls of the AMCs. Historically the IJN AMCs didn't really accomplish much as AMCs.

The US Liberty Ship Stephen Hopkins fought a gun battle against one of the German AMCs (forgot which one) and in spite of the rather light armament of the Stephen Hopkins the German ship was sunk (along with the Stephen Hopkins).

And in the Pacific an Indian Navy minesweeper with one 4" gun and a tanker with like armament drove off two IJN AMCs sinking one (IIRC the Hokuku Maru) even though they had a dozen 155mm guns between them.

The major problem of AMCs was the fact that they were designed to ease the loading and unloading of cargo: their subdivisions included some very large spaces (called holds) which, if flooded or set afire; quickly brought on flooding or fires of very major proportions. The volume of a single hold on a merchant ship would be divided into 10-20 watertight and (nearly) fire-tight compartments on a similar sized warship. Thus ANY damage on an AMC could quickly become severe enough to endanger the ship.

Probably it's best to use them as troopships with better than average defense or convert them to something else.

I will confess that in a CHS game of WitP as the Allied Player I did get (probably overly) concerned with the threat they represented to my merchies and I did devote some not inconsiderable resources to hunting them down when I located any. In the end I think I lost a total of about 5 merchant ships sunk and another half dozen damaged to IJN AMCs. IIRC I sank 4 of them that were operating as AMCs: 3 with British CLs and one with carrier a/c (US). A typical "old" British CL is generally more than a match for one of the IJN AMCs.




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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Andy Mac »

:) just be carefull when you approach an AI Ironman AMC.....
 
I liked them a lot so they got lots of love....(the AI seems to use them a lot as escorts so I made sure they were as good as AMC's get)
 
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by pmattiasn »

Quick question unrelated to OP - is there a new Ironman scen out there ("Ironman Allied")? I did a quick google and only found the original that supports the Japanase AI only...
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Q-Ball
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Q-Ball »

If I am not mistaken, they unload like an AP (as opposed to an xAP), thus are good for invasions. You need those quick unload ships.

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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by DivePac88 »

In a PBEM game they can be a damned pain if the hang around the SouthPac area, as you have to find CL/CA escorts for you convoys. Just after the PH raid I normally like to do a single CV task force sweep of the Pago Pago area, just to nail these guys.
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by vinnie71 »

The AI also uses 2 groups of 2 AMCs between Canton Is and Palmyra as well. Mostly though they seem to form part of invasion forces.
 
The only time I actually met them in ship to ship combat, one group of 2 AMCs got really kicked by an American destroyer which damaged them heavily both, even though they damaged some AKs in the convoy.
 
Well its not that the Allied ones are much better though. They can't go toe to toe with any Japanese ship of destroyer size or over...
 
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Smeulders »

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

The AI also uses 2 groups of 2 AMCs between Canton Is and Palmyra as well. Mostly though they seem to form part of invasion forces.

The only time I actually met them in ship to ship combat, one group of 2 AMCs got really kicked by an American destroyer which damaged them heavily both, even though they damaged some AKs in the convoy.

Well its not that the Allied ones are much better though. They can't go toe to toe with any Japanese ship of destroyer size or over...
It's true that they go down easily again destroyers. One was prowling SW of Australia in a PBEM and met 3 destroyers, one torpedo attack and the battle was over. They don't have the speed to outrun the DD and not enough manoeuvrability to avoid a torpedo attack.
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d0mbo
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by d0mbo »

If I am not mistaken, they unload like an AP (as opposed to an xAP), thus are good for invasions. You need those quick unload ships.




Can someone confirm this? THis would greatly increase their value (apart from their nice speed & T/C capacity they already have)!
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redcoat
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by redcoat »


I don’t think many AMCs had much success as raiders historically. They were often used as troop transports. Around half of them had been re-rated as transports by November 1943.

Some AMCs had nice paint jobs. A couple of photos of Hokoku Maru:

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Ketza
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Ketza »

I use them for quick invasions. They are fairly fast and carry the 60av naval landing units. I have had them run into the likes of the Louisville in my quick grabs and it wasnt pretty however....
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Shark7
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Shark7 »

Actually I have put my AMCs in a TF with a Katori Class CL and some Kamikaze DDs and (against the AI) have had great success convoy raiding in the South Pacific with this fleet. By using them with real warships, they seem to gain badly needed XP more quickly, and actually get quite good at surface combat....if they survive the engagements.
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Andy Mac
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Andy Mac »

I did an Allied Ironman scen a few months back I am trying to bring it up to spec at present but its a week+ away
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EUBanana
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by EUBanana »

Presterjohn shot up a couple of convoys with AMCs - 6 inch guns in a surface engagement will dish out some serious hurt, and surface combat in general is lethal, you can wipe out a dozen ships with a couple of AMCs and some luck.

That said, the window of opportunity for them is very small (1941/early 42) and it's fairly easy to counter them. After a disaster I started using Omaha CLs as convoy escorts - some AMCs did find a CL escorted convoy in my game and were driven off by it. Since then, quiet, as the air umbrella is up now.
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Yaab
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Yaab »

Necromancy warning.

Shouldn't AMCs on both sides get a bonus to misidentification by enemy subs/aircraft/ships? If an Allied AMC gets into Jap shipping lanes, the ship should be identified as Japanese by Japanese lookouts/search aircraft/subs captains (at least by those with low exp//skill), prior to its first attack on Japanese ships.
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RangerJoe
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by RangerJoe »

Not necessarily. I see lots of false reports of enemy ships anyway.

Any smart captain would have his ship go to general quarters upon seeing an unexpected ship coming close while in a war zone.
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Chris21wen »

ORIGINAL: Mynok


They have pretty good troop transport abilities.

..and you can them as fast transport. Some are impressively armed and can carry FP/FF but are not armoured. They are also useful as excorts.


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Yaab
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RE: Japanese AMC - are they any use?

Post by Yaab »

Damn, is this MONSTER from the stock? It is the best CLAA the Japs will ever have! 14 big DP guns, 36 x 40mm Bofors. Just kill me already! This thing belongs in a CV TF or the BB Yamato final mission.
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