Upgrade path problem?

[viberpol]

The problem: It seems that after several upgrades some part of the upgrade path previously possible disappears. It can affect player in many ways with different types of planes.

In my case after I first figured out that 12 sentais can (theoretically, according to Tracker, see here tm.asp?m=2236936&mpage=62&#2601860 for the list of available squadrons) be upgraded with Ki-48IIB army dive bomber, in reality (in long played PBEM with several subsequent patches) only two not previously upgraded are now really available. The question is (WTF) [:@] why? [&:]

To replicate:
Load the H2H test file. Search for 75th Sentai armed with Ki 48 Ib medium level bombers.
Notice: the "upgrade path" --> the Ki48IIb (dive bomber) is available.
Upgrade the 75th Sentai with Ki21Ic Sallies.
Notice: the "upgrade path" --> the Ki48IIb (dive bomber) is still available.
But upgrade it once again with the initial frame --> Ki48Ib and Ki48IIb (dive bomber) is NOT available. And it seems like it'll never be no matter what change/upgrade you make.

I knew that changing some attributes of a plane (say, changing dive bomber with torpedo bomber) changes the options available. But in this case we are changing within (medium) level bombers range. Is it WAD or a mistake in attribute change? (or I am just a dumb player?) [&:] PDU too restrictive?

After a long played game with many upgrades players are having shorter upgrade paths which means less opportunities, and with many other squadrons/types of planes the case is similar.

[michaelm75au]

A future patch will allow the player to keep the original upgrade even if it is changed to something else. Thus you can still maintain the relative path stipulated by the OOB designer.

The upgrade path is currently linear so when you pick some other aircraft, the current upgrade is overridden.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

A future patch will allow the player to keep the original upgrade even if it is changed to something else. Thus you can still maintain the relative path stipulated by the OOB designer.

The upgrade path is currently linear so when you pick some other aircraft, the current upgrade is overridden.

Michael, thanks for the immediate answer.
So I suppose it's not working as designed now?
You say "keep"...
And what about "getting back" the wider path in ongoing PBEMs?

I am quite frustrated because it seems that after several up/downgrades even some fighter daitais lost its possibility to upgrade with the newest airframes. (I can submit more examples that changing... say Yokosuka S2 fighter daitai/those that should let it, to and fro, makes it impossible to upgrade with Georges now...)
That said, and apart from the fact that they're (too?) much limited for a real freedom of "Player defined upgrade", JFBs cannot even use their Jacks or Georges now! [8|]

And... what is the "future patch" ETA? [;)]

[michaelm75au]

It is working as designed as the group path determines the upgrades. If one upgrade in the path is change, then it the current group upgrade is lost and the next one takes over after the player upgrade one.

The future patch will also show the remaining group upgrades as it is sometimes hard to figure it out without resorting to the editor.

[viberpol]

I am sorry Michael, but I think the problem could be buried deeper than you now think.

Please, load the attached file.
Go to: Yokosuka Ku S-2 with A6M2s stationed at Yokosuka.

This squadron can be equipped with N1K1 directly (if available).
1. upgrade it with A6M5 (look at the possible upgrade path)
2. upgrade with A6M2 (look at the possible path)
3. once again upgrade with A6M5 (look how the option is limited)
4. upgrade with A6M2
... and you now lost the opportunity to get the squadron equipped with N1K1 forever.

Look, we're changing the aircrafts that are of the same type, so they should have the paths the same. But they don't.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
If one upgrade in the path is change, then it the current group upgrade is lost and the next one takes over after the player upgrade one.

Simply I cannot understand how switching between natural interchangeable types of aircraft (we started with A6M2 and end with the same A6M2) gets rid of N1K1? After the first upgrade with A6M5/A6M2 you still have the opportunity for N1K family but after the second... nope? That's weird.
I don't think it's WAD, and I don't think it's fair to limit the limited PDU even more. Just my opinion.

[michaelm75au]

Mucking around with the upgrade path as set by the OOB designer will cause the current upgrade to be lost. Always has the case.

Because of this and other reasons I have, I felt it necessary to allow the current upgrade to be retained if the player wishes.

This is the screen after I did the sequence of upgrades you outlined opting to retain the original upgrade.

You will see that the N1K1 is now on the list with a (+) against it. This means that it is the original upgrade set by the designer and can be selected if desired.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Mucking around with the upgrade path as set by the OOB designer will cause the current upgrade to be lost. Always has the case.

Because of this and other reasons I have, I felt it necessary to allow the current upgrade to be retained if the player wishes.

This is the screen after I did the sequence of upgrades you outlined opting to retain the original upgrade.

You will see that the N1K1 is now on the list with a (+) against it. This means that it is the original upgrade set by the designer and can be selected if desired.

That solution would be great! [&o] This list looks as it should!

And my initial question is still valid. Will it be possible to regain the initial upgrade path in squadrons that has been changed meantime during PBEM?

This is very important for long played PBEMs where lists over time look like this one below almost in every case. Notice, that this is the same Yokosuka Ku S-2 squadron that should get Georges but from real game is left with mediocre limited possibilities.

[michaelm75au]

The original upgrade would have been lost in current games if you pick something else to replace it.
The new patch could only save the original upgrade from the time the patch is applied.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The original upgrade would have been lost in current games if you pick something else to replace it.
The new patch could only save the original upgrade from the time the patch is applied.

That's bad... [:(] [:(] [:(]
Many players simply do not know what they lost during their games.

This hits the JFBs most because there is only a few daitais that can take the better planes such as N1K or J2M.

[Rynok]

[font="Tahoma"]I've been working with these cross-role upgrades and though this will all apparently become moot when the patch is released, I can relate some findings. First, any group that does not change roles is safe. A straight fighter group can upgrade to any fighter type, old and new, back and forth, without compromising any options. It's the groups that change roles that can break. As related, when an upgrade is made a slot is used. Example:

Fighter1 -> Fighter2 -> BomberA -> BomberB

In the upgrade pick list this group will show all fighter types plus BomberA. BomberB will not show on the list. If Fighter1 is upgraded to Fighter3, nothing bad will happen. The Fighter2 slot will be bumped, leaving the BomberA option still open. But if it at that point it is again upgraded to a fighter, say Fighter4 (or even Fighter2), BomberA will be bumped and the group can never upgrade to bombers.

There are a number of groups that take this form, with no intervening PDU off upgrade of the same type:

Fighter1 -> FighterbomberA -> FighterbomberB

If this group is upgraded to Fighter2, or Fighter7 or Fighter900, the upgrade to fighterbomber will be lost. Most of the Japanese Ki-27b to Ki-45 KAIa groups are like this.

There is another element to this. In the first example, when the fighter group is upgraded to BomberA all bomber types will now appear in the pick list and all fighter types will disappear. So when a carrier fighter group upgrades to a land-based fighter, like A6M2 -> A6M3, all land-based fighters, including N1K1-J, will become available. However, if the land-based fighter is recoverted to a carrier-based fighter (which can show up on the pick list if it was in the orignal PDU off path), the group reverts to carrier fighter and the ephemeral land-based option is lost.

Specific upgrade paths for individual groups can only be reliably determined by looking at them in the Scenario Editor (which is very easy). But you can at least tell if a group has a role change just by looking at its ingame upgrade pick list. If a group is able to upgrade to a different role, then one aircraft of the new role will appear on its pick list.

-Rynok[/font]

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: Rynok
[font="Tahoma"]I've been working with these cross-role upgrades and though this will all apparently become moot when the patch is released, I can relate some findings. First, any group that does not change roles is safe. It's the groups that change roles that can break.
(...)

Well, not true.
See my example above with Yokosuka Ku S-2 and changing to and fro with the same two types of aircafts. Switching between A6M2 and A6M5 two times and you have no N1K type option available. Never ever. This is true with almost all other navy squadrons.

ORIGINAL: viberpol

I am sorry Michael, but I think the problem could be buried deeper than you now think.

Please, load the attached file.
Go to: Yokosuka Ku S-2 with A6M2s stationed at Yokosuka.

This squadron can be equipped with N1K1 directly (if available).
1. upgrade it with A6M5 (look at the possible upgrade path)
2. upgrade with A6M2 (look at the possible path)
3. once again upgrade with A6M5 (look how the option is limited)
4. upgrade with A6M2
... and you now lost the opportunity to get the squadron equipped with N1K1 forever.

ORIGINAL: Rynok
However, if the land-based fighter is recoverted to a carrier-based fighter (which can show up on the pick list if it was in the orignal PDU off path), the group reverts to carrier fighter and the ephemeral land-based option is lost.
-Rynok

As above. This may be the case, but as many players during their year, two or three years old PBEM upgrade their land based navy squadrons (it's often done to: (1) speed up filling of the group -- while you can add only max 12 planes -- upgrading and downgrading fills all heavily hammered daitai full while on rest (2) while you need longer or shorter legs I frequently change between A6M3/A6M3a) (3) it happens sometimes automatically even if you're not aware of changing "Y" in option upgrade, they do lose the opportunity to use J2M or N1K in those squadrons. And I think I am not the only one doing frequent upgrades/downgrades within the same type - not "changing the roles". All types (meaning A6M2 and A6M5) were both land based and carrier based, the same with my first example - changing from Lilly to Sally and back is not changing roles) so... [&:]

I've seen many players here asking many times: "Which squadrons I can use my new shiny Georges in? I can't find any, even if tracker says it should be at least 8 active daitais in 9.43!".
The answer is: "If you happen to upgrade/downgrade, purposely or not, 3 or 4 times between A6m2/a6m3a or/and A6M5 then you are busted. You can't use any N1K".

I've been playing WITP/AE for 5 years now and know the amount of time and resources we all commit to our PBEMs and I think it's not fair to lose this ability in face of so scarce new daitais JFBs receive and so much limited PDU and given no warning of such a "feature" in manual or wherever.

[Rynok]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

Well, not true.
See my example above with Yokosuka Ku S-2 and changing to and fro with the same two types of aircafts. Switching between A6M2 and A6M5 two times and you have no N1K type option available. Never ever. This is true with almost all other navy squadrons.

[font="Tahoma"]Yes, because the Yokosuka S-2 has role changes. You can do off-path back and forth upgrades without conseqence only for a group which has no role changes. I agree 100% that this is frustrating. I quit my first serious AI game over this. But...it is possible to maneuver through the paths with options if you know what the paths are. Since I researched the Yokosuka S-2 before posting, here's what it looks like:

E8N2 > F1M2 > A6M3a > A6M5 > N1K1-J > N1K2-J > N1K5-J > J7W1

At the start this can be upgraded to any floatplane. This can be done once, bumping the F1M2 slot, without breaking the A6M3a upgrade. A second floatplane upgrade will bump the A6M3a slot and the group will have lost its carrier fighter capability. If you successfully navigate to the A6M3a upgrade you're in the same situation regarding switching to land-based fighters. You have the A6M5 slot to play with. The group can be upgraded to any carrier fighter type. That will bump the A6M5 slot. If you then do another carrier fighter upgrade the N1K1-J slot will be bumped and the group can never upgrade to land-based fighters.

There is one other thing that's been touched on. A6M3s. If you hold on to A6M3 groups and do not upgrade them to carrier fighter types (which will show in their ingame upgrade pick lists) they will be able to upgrade to N1K1-J when available.

Genzan Ku S-1
Yokosuka Ku S-1
2nd Ku S-1
6th Ku S-1

If these are upgraded from A6M3 to N1K1-J they will not be able to go back to carrier fighters.

-Rynok[/font]