Alternate aircraft bomb loads - in the game ?

[asdicus]

I am now up to mid 1943 in my 2nd ae pbm game as the allies and so far I cannot ever recall seeing my planes use bomb loads other than the normal or extended range options. I know the game database includes all manner of different weapon loads eg AP or GP bombs, parafrags, air-to-ground rockets etc etc but does the game engine actually use these different weapons ? If so how does the game decide when to use what type of weapon ? For instance the standard load of B-17 is 8 500lb GP bombs. It could carry 4 1000lb bombs or 2 2000lb bombs but I have nver seen the game actually do this. It is a bit frustrating because 4e bombers always use 500lb gp bombs against ships - which are almost useless against bb's because they cannot penetrate.

I would note the original witp did have the option for 4e bombers to sometimes carry 2000lb bombs and SBD could carry 1000 lb AP or GP bombs. The dos game pacwar also allowed considerable options on bombloads eg 2000lb bombs for 4e or air to ground rockets for late war allied planes.

[Djordje]

In one of my PBEM games my CV was hit by 1000lb bomb carried by SBD, so it is still in the game. My Kates and Nell/Betty bombers sometimes carry 800kg bombs instead of 500kg when I send them on port attack. As far as port attack is concerned it appears to be pretty much random (as long as I make sure to fly in normal range, from large and well supplied airfield, otherwise they will carry normal load).

[asdicus]

Djordje the standard range bombload of the SBD is a 1000lb GP bomb ie this is the normal bombload. If your SDB were dropping 1000lb AP bombs I would very interested as this weapon is not listed on the aircraft loadout.

Re betty/nell/kate etc using 800kg bombs for port attacks yes I have seen this happen. I would like to see some loadout variations for allied planes as well.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

I am now up to mid 1943 in my 2nd ae pbm game as the allies and so far I cannot ever recall seeing my planes use bomb loads other than the normal or extended range options. I know the game database includes all manner of different weapon loads eg AP or GP bombs, parafrags, air-to-ground rockets etc etc but does the game engine actually use these different weapons ? If so how does the game decide when to use what type of weapon ? For instance the standard load of B-17 is 8 500lb GP bombs. It could carry 4 1000lb bombs or 2 2000lb bombs but I have nver seen the game actually do this. It is a bit frustrating because 4e bombers always use 500lb gp bombs against ships - which are almost useless against bb's because they cannot penetrate.

I would note the original witp did have the option for 4e bombers to sometimes carry 2000lb bombs and SBD could carry 1000 lb AP or GP bombs. The dos game pacwar also allowed considerable options on bombloads eg 2000lb bombs for 4e or air to ground rockets for late war allied planes.

the only time I can recall seeing different loadouts in WITP were nav attacks. Especially 4E bombers started to drop bigger bombs on ships when they had sufficient experience.

We´re in mid 43 in my PBEM too now and so far I haven´t seen my bombers drop anything else than the standart or reduced loadout.

[EUBanana]

Speaking of bombloads, has anybody got to drop one of those 4000lbers the British have in the late war on something expensive?

I am curious how a BB would stand up to one of them. [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

I am now up to mid 1943 in my 2nd ae pbm game as the allies and so far I cannot ever recall seeing my planes use bomb loads other than the normal or extended range options. I know the game database includes all manner of different weapon loads eg AP or GP bombs, parafrags, air-to-ground rockets etc etc but does the game engine actually use these different weapons ? If so how does the game decide when to use what type of weapon ? For instance the standard load of B-17 is 8 500lb GP bombs. It could carry 4 1000lb bombs or 2 2000lb bombs but I have nver seen the game actually do this. It is a bit frustrating because 4e bombers always use 500lb gp bombs against ships - which are almost useless against bb's because they cannot penetrate.

I would note the original witp did have the option for 4e bombers to sometimes carry 2000lb bombs and SBD could carry 1000 lb AP or GP bombs. The dos game pacwar also allowed considerable options on bombloads eg 2000lb bombs for 4e or air to ground rockets for late war allied planes.

In standard WITP there are "die rolls" made after a certain date (Aug 1942, iirc) for Allies to see if they will use certain larger bombs... i am guessing this is carryover in the code... this was supposed to make AP bombs available for divebombers, and 1000 lb. (or bigger?) bombs for 4E level bombers.

The die roll is modified by supply and by the experience of the attacking group.

As above, i am guessing that this code wasn't taken out of AE.

[Sardaukar]

I hope so. In WitP - CHS mod, there were even 4000 lb GP bombs available. DBs having 1000 AP would be nice, even though they were quite rare, I think?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: asdicus

I am now up to mid 1943 in my 2nd ae pbm game as the allies and so far I cannot ever recall seeing my planes use bomb loads other than the normal or extended range options. I know the game database includes all manner of different weapon loads eg AP or GP bombs, parafrags, air-to-ground rockets etc etc but does the game engine actually use these different weapons ? If so how does the game decide when to use what type of weapon ? For instance the standard load of B-17 is 8 500lb GP bombs. It could carry 4 1000lb bombs or 2 2000lb bombs but I have nver seen the game actually do this. It is a bit frustrating because 4e bombers always use 500lb gp bombs against ships - which are almost useless against bb's because they cannot penetrate.

I would note the original witp did have the option for 4e bombers to sometimes carry 2000lb bombs and SBD could carry 1000 lb AP or GP bombs. The dos game pacwar also allowed considerable options on bombloads eg 2000lb bombs for 4e or air to ground rockets for late war allied planes.

In standard WITP there are "die rolls" made after a certain date (Aug 1942, iirc) for Allies to see if they will use certain larger bombs... i am guessing this is carryover in the code... this was supposed to make AP bombs available for divebombers, and 1000 lb. (or bigger?) bombs for 4E level bombers.

The die roll is modified by supply and by the experience of the attacking group.

As above, i am guessing that this code wasn't taken out of AE.

if it was carried over and wasn´t modified then this is kind of a problem because in WITP the overall experience was at least 10-15 points higher than in AE with bomber crews having flown 150 combat missions and still stuck at 73 exp for example.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I hope so. In WitP - CHS mod, there were even 4000 lb GP bombs available. DBs having 1000 AP would be nice, even though they were quite rare, I think?

DBs are dropping SAP bombs against naval targets now anyway which is sufficient for everything except a BB. The times of IJN cruisers being immune to 500lb bombs is also over as these are SAP now too. So I would rate that sure as an improvement over WITP.

[sprior]

I am curious how a BB would stand up to one of them.

Ask the crew of the Tirpitz!

[castor troy]

the Tallboy was three times a 4000lb bomb though.

[Misconduct]

I ran an Allies game against the AI, ended close to Feb '44 and I never seen any LBA drop anything other then 500lb on any mission period.

On my first game against the allies AI as a japanese player, I have seen my kates drop 800kg bombs on ports and ships on a port attack mission.
I haven't tested the 800kg on naval attack yet (instead of using torpedoes I will use bombs).

[chesmart]

Agree with Misconduct I have played 2 games Allies Vs AI till 1945 and have seen only standard loads

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I ran an Allies game against the AI, ended close to Feb '44 and I never seen any LBA drop anything other then 500lb on any mission period.

On my first game against the allies AI as a japanese player, I have seen my kates drop 800kg bombs on ports and ships on a port attack mission.
I haven't tested the 800kg on naval attack yet (instead of using torpedoes I will use bombs).

that´s been carried over from WITP. Kates will use 800kg bombs for non torp port attacks but if you would use bombs instead of torps on a navattack then they would carry 2x250kg bombs.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: che200

Agree with Misconduct I have played 2 games Allies Vs AI till 1945 and have seen only standard loads

a pity to hear that[:(]

[michaelm75au]

Allied heavy land based bombers may carry 1000 or 2000 lb bombs to normal range against TFs in place of 500 lb bombs (device = 203).
- Based on chance and group experience 70+. But not a low altitude ( would need to be 6000+, IIRC)
- If year is 1943+ and the group base has ample supply and the 2000lb bomb has a PEN value >100, it will carry 2000lb'ers ( quarter as many larger bombers) (device = 205)
- Else it will carry 1000lb'ers ( halve as many larger bombers). (device = 204)

Allied dive bombers may carry 1000 lb AP (device = 198) bombs to normal range against TFs rather than 1000 lb GP (device = 204) bomb.
- Based on chance and group experience 70+. But not a low altitude ( would need to be 6000+, IIRC)
- If date is Aug 1942 or later, and the group's land base has ample supply or the group's ship has sys+float <30, and the 1000lb AP bomb has a PEN value >70, it will use the 1000 lb AP.

This is basically what was in the original WITP with things like device # changed.
As far I know this still happens as I have seen in in some of my earlier games.

[edit]
Haven't checked to see if aircraft actually are using the stated device numbers.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

Djordje the standard range bombload of the SBD is a 1000lb GP bomb ie this is the normal bombload. If your SDB were dropping 1000lb AP bombs I would very interested as this weapon is not listed on the aircraft loadout.

Re betty/nell/kate etc using 800kg bombs for port attacks yes I have seen this happen. I would like to see some loadout variations for allied planes as well.

And those 800kg bombs on port attack are just about the best ASW weapon you have. AI has a tendancy to base subs in range...most of the subs I have sunk in my AI games were in Manila for repairs and met Mr. 800kg bomb.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Allied heavy land based bombers may carry 1000 or 2000 lb bombs to normal range against TFs in place of 500 lb bombs (device = 203).
- Based on chance and group experience 70+. But not a low altitude ( would need to be 6000+, IIRC)
- If year is 1943+ and the group base has ample supply and the 2000lb bomb has a PEN value >100, it will carry 2000lb'ers ( quarter as many larger bombers) (device = 205)
- Else it will carry 1000lb'ers ( halve as many larger bombers). (device = 204)

Allied dive bombers may carry 1000 lb AP (device = 198) bombs to normal range against TFs rather than 1000 lb GP (device = 204) bomb.
- Based on chance and group experience 70+. But not a low altitude ( would need to be 6000+, IIRC)
- If date is Aug 1942 or later, and the group's land base has ample supply or the group's ship has sys+float <30, and the 1000lb AP bomb has a PEN value >70, it will use the 1000 lb AP.

This is basically what was in the original WITP with things like device # changed.
As far I know this still happens as I have seen in in some of my earlier games.

[edit]
Haven't checked to see if aircraft actually are using the stated device numbers.

I guess if everything is working as designed then this will be the main reason people don´t see their squadrons attacking with heavier bombs. Getting the GROUP experience above 70 is quite a task. Like I´ve mentioned further above already, I think this should be reduced by 10 points as also the experience gain is far harder than in WITP when it was normal to field 80+ experience GROUPS. Now you´ve got a couple of dozen pilots of this experience on the whole map at best. At least that´s how it is in my game with bomber crews having flown far over 100 combat missions but still being below 70 experience. If you´ve got a 65 exp GROUP then you can speak about a very experienced group IMO.

edit: that´s one of my three best fighter squadrons on the map, one of the unbeatable P-38 squadrons with lots of aces, kind of an experten squadron. And like you can see, this squadron only got 72 GROUP experience. Granted, it´s a fighter squadron but my best bomber squadrons hardly look that good, let alone better. And the date in my PBEM is 7/43. So greatly reducing the overal experience in AE compared to WITP (I would say reduced from 80 to 60) you would have to also change the experience check for things like loadout for bombers.

thoughts?

edit/edit: just to point it out, before someone shouts me down, I find the overal lower exp and the skills a vast improvement over how it was in WITP so don´t get me wrong again. But then we should also discuss a reduction of the needed exp for routines like the one michaelm described.

[witpqs]

That's definitely true. There is a big difference between AE and WITP, which had skills built into experience.

[michaelm75au]

I originally was going to use the BOMBING skills to determine the alternate loads but that would mean controlling more than one set of weapon loads per attach/group, which lead to other issues, the least being that the combat report showed the load from the first attacker in the group/raid.
So went back to the old group Experience.