Surface Combat - What Am I missing here?

[AcePylut]

CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages BB Resolution at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages BB Ramillies at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages BB Royal Sovereign at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages BB Revenge at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Glasgow at 2,000 yards


The information we don't have, here, is when the Japanese detected the Brits.

Ok... so the allies detected the Japs on radar at 11k. Becauseit's April '42, shooting via radar in the midst of a thunderstorm and a raging sea was not a tactic that was effective, and the Brits didn't want to give away their position via gunfire shell flash shooting blanks at ghosts on a newfangled radar thingamajig.

When did the Japs spot the Brits. If it was anything above 2k... then all that "I saw em on radar first" doesn't really matter (if, indeed, that is what happened. remember, we don't know when the Japs spotted the Brits).



Suppose the Japanese detected the Brits at 4k yards.... and it was a hotshot Japanese set of eyes on the Hyuga that spotted the Brit BB's *first*, for whatever reason might exist. Perhaps a lightning bolt (thunderstorms, remember) struck near the Resolution that "lit it up for all the Japs to see," and as a result, the Hyuga got off a devastating first salvo.... perhaps the Japs were in the right place in relation to the T-storm, that allows the Japs to see the Brits but the Brits not see the Japs... and as such.... the Hyuga ran the gamut on all four BB's.


Throw in an upset sea due to the T-storm, and the lighting flashes ruining the eyesight of everyone... and that same hotshot pair of eyes on the Hyuga got range and direction
Boom. The Brits just had all their BB's lit up, and while the Brits knew just about where the Japs were, they didn't fire because they weren't sure enough.

So who was the commander of the Brit and what were his skills?

Even if his naval skill was excellent - perhaps the fact that he just saw one of his BB's and a CL turn into a torch - and was getting "not 100% accurate information" on the size and types of ships in the Japs TF, perhaps he thought he was outnumbered, made a bad decision on "how or when" to retreat, called for some harassing fire to cover the retreat (explaining why they didn't do much damage to the Brits), and got the other ships tagged while retreating.

Or perhaps the Brit commander made a mistake and thought the Japs were heavily outnumbered, and gave commands that were the "wrong" ones to give, and his ships got tagged before doing anything...

Or perhaps, the Jap commander just got the better on the Brits and "won" this battle.

----

The result I see here, given all the variables, is nothing that I find "extraordinary".

[witpqs]

It seems very strange that, when itself previously detected, one ship can fire on five enemy ships with no return fire.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It seems very strange that, when itself previously detected, one ship can fire on five enemy ships with no return fire.

I would never try to engage any IJN BB's with Allied BB's, unless you have 3 on 1 or better. Even then, expect to lose one of your 3 and have another damaged.

I've seen way too many IJN super battleships in this game. I play vs AI, and the AI used to (prior to patch 3 anyway) send small surface forces to PH (about once every 2 months.) I saw maybe a dozen of these examples. I'd spot them two days out, and be ready for them (subs in their path, and a perfectly made surface force waiting for them.) I'd have 6-8 of the old BB's vs 1 or 2 IJN BB's, a CA and 2 DD's. I'd lose one BB every time (2 a few times) and have two more in the shop for months. In return, I'd moderately damage one BB and sink a DD. That happend probably 10 of the 12 examples. Some of my examples I had NC, WA and SD in the mix. At least they could withstand a belt hit every once in a while.

It's very painful to watch the animations. Every "round" of combat, the IJN BB will get one or more penetrating hits on Allied BB's. Probably every 5th "round" of combat would I see a penetrating hit on an IJN BB. Even with superior numbers and superior prior spotting intelligence.

The ops example is very similar. He damaged one or two and was lucky to have CV support to finish them off. Otherwise, the IJN would have only had damage to repair.

I've seen examples where the Allies get away fairly one sided. But, the IJN wins somewhere between 75% and 90% of the time. 43 isn't better. I don't know if 44 or 45 changes things. Maybe by then, the Allies gain the surface domination they enjoyed in the actual war after 42.

In my latest restart, I have completely avoided surface fights against IJN BB's, so I don't know if things are different with patch 4.

[davbaker]

It's almost as if the Brits were getting 'radar' detects (which dont allow actual shooting) right up until 2,000 yards but still didnt kick over to actual 'spotted' until they had been fired on.

There is a query/bug with Air radar in the Tech section with detecting raids and a fall through condition with 'spotted' and 'radar' detection not working as it should. Wonder if this is something similar?

Then again maybe I'm just a sore loser looking for excuses ...[:'(] heh

grumble, damn Jap BB, grumble

p.s. After my intial success sinking 2 BB with carriers he brough up some fleet carriers from Singers that I hadnt known were there and sunk Hermes and mortally wounded Formidable.

Talk about adding insult to injury!

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
It seems like the Brits always get the poor end of the stick. My old British BBs have not fared too well. Perhaps they should get a radar bonus from the start. We are talking about one year after the battle of Matapan (3-41). Of all the combatant in the Pacific war in 1942, the Brits had the experience with radar and knew how to take advantage of it. It is not so much the firing range but the situational bonus that radar gave.

Qualitatively, the Japanese are at a minimum equal and often superior to British ships. Old R's are not exactly the A-team.

The experience of British surface ships and British surface commanders is inferior to the Japanese, especially at night.

Which is crazy. BB Warspite was, by 1942, a war hero and veteran of multiple engagements, including ones at night where she acquitted herself nobly. BB Mutsu, on the other hand, fired four shells from her main armament in the entire war and yet somehow is rated as more experienced than Warspite.

I think if you ramped up British surface combat ship experience scores to the 70 mark, and even higher for some (I'd give Warspite 80/80 myself, she probably the most battlehardened capital ship in the world by 1942), and gave them some decent captains with high naval scores, they'd perform much closer to their capability. Granted, this should not apply to British CVs and CV squadrons.

I think radar is influenced by ship experience/captain experience?

[chesmart]

Historically the Allies prefered to engage the IJN BBs with aircraft even in 1945. i.e. Yamato sortie was engaged by aircraft when American BBs where close to the beachead on Okinawa.

Btw in 1944-45 Vs the AI USA BBs engage with radar.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: che200
Historically the Allies prefered to engage the IJN BBs with aircraft even in 1945. i.e. Yamato sortie was engaged by aircraft when American BBs where close to the beachead on Okinawa.

A BB engagement was considered - but why risk it when you had that sort of aerial firepower. It'd practically be Queensberry Rules warfare if they accepted a battleship duel without all those unfair aircraft around [:D].

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: che200

Historically the Allies prefered to engage the IJN BBs with aircraft even in 1945. i.e. Yamato sortie was engaged by aircraft when American BBs where close to the beachead on Okinawa.

Btw in 1944-45 Vs the AI USA BBs engage with radar.

I guess this would be true for everyone when you´ve got lots of aircraft around that can sink such a beast without you having to risk tens of thousand sailors plus millions of $ for each BB... sinking such a BB for the loss of one or two dozen aircraft is a big victory, sinking such a BB for the loss of one or two BBs yourselve is rather a tragedy in real life...

same goes for the game of course, I couldn´t think of sending in a BB to counter another BB if I would be sure to have 200 torp bombers attacking instead...

[chesmart]

IIRC in the battle of phlippine sea a surface engagment was evaded because Adm Lee did not think his forces would win in a night engagment.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Sounds almost like Tassaforonga: the US "sees" the japs on radar, even launches torps before the japs are aware of them, but the second the US opens fire, the japs promptly long lance their way to victory. A result that I am sure would cause complaints were it to happen in the game. [:D]

TOO Funny!! [:D]

Worse, I agree 100%. [&o][&o][&o]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It seems very strange that, when itself previously detected, one ship can fire on five enemy ships with no return fire.

Perhaps they were busy shooting at their own ship such as happened to Atlanta during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadacanal. [:-] So many factors involved in a night fight. Personally, I like the randomness of the whole thing. Makes the game exciting-and frustrating......

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: che200

Historically the Allies prefered to engage the IJN BBs with aircraft even in 1945. i.e. Yamato sortie was engaged by aircraft when American BBs where close to the beachead on Okinawa.

Btw in 1944-45 Vs the AI USA BBs engage with radar.

Which only makes sense. Why risk the lives of 2,000 sailors to possibly one 18 inch shell (Hood comes to mind) when you can accomplish the same with the loss of only a few airmen? The admirals of the surface force (for all combatants) were itching for any fight to prove that their precious BBs were not redundant and were often at times too willing to sacrifice the lives of sailors to make a point. Just too many cowboys out there.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It seems very strange that, when itself previously detected, one ship can fire on five enemy ships with no return fire.

Perhaps they were busy shooting at their own ship such as happened to Atlanta during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadacanal. [:-] So many factors involved in a night fight. Personally, I like the randomness of the whole thing. Makes the game exciting-and frustrating......

I love the randomness. Given the number of consistent anecdotes I'm wondering if this is more than just randomness but rather some deficiency in the code.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: che200

IIRC in the battle of phlippine sea a surface engagment was evaded because Adm Lee did not think his forces would win in a night engagment.

I never heard that. Could you elaborate a bit?

[chesmart]

I forgot where i read it but i think it was in a book by eric hammel. Basically mitscher asks lee after the japanese strike about engaging the japanese fleet in a night action and lee recomended not to. Will check out my sources as i am not 100% about when the episode happened.

[chesmart]

Shortly before midnight on June 18, Admiral Chester W. Nimitz sent Spruance a message from Pacific Fleet Headquarters indicating that the Japanese flagship was approximately 350 miles (562 km) to the west-southwest of Task Force 58. This was stated as based on a "fix" obtained by radio direction-finding, but was more probably due to decryption of intercepted Japanese naval messages. Mitscher realized that if Task Force 58 were to advance westward, there was a strong chance of a night surface encounter with Ozawa's forces. He therefore conferred with Lee, commander of the Fifth Fleet Battle Line, and inquired whether Lee favored such an encounter. The battleship commander wasn't enthusiastic about a night engagement with Japanese surface forces, despite his new ships outclassing most of the Japanese battleships, feeling that his crews weren't adequately trained for such an action. Shortly after his discussion with Lee, Mitscher asked Spruance for permission to head west during the night to reach what would be an ideal launch position for an all-out aerial assault on the enemy force at dawn.

Found it in on Wiki but i read it in Hammels book.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: che200

Shortly before midnight on June 18, Admiral Chester W. Nimitz sent Spruance a message from Pacific Fleet Headquarters indicating that the Japanese flagship was approximately 350 miles (562 km) to the west-southwest of Task Force 58. This was stated as based on a "fix" obtained by radio direction-finding, but was more probably due to decryption of intercepted Japanese naval messages. Mitscher realized that if Task Force 58 were to advance westward, there was a strong chance of a night surface encounter with Ozawa's forces. He therefore conferred with Lee, commander of the Fifth Fleet Battle Line, and inquired whether Lee favored such an encounter. The battleship commander wasn't enthusiastic about a night engagement with Japanese surface forces, despite his new ships outclassing most of the Japanese battleships, feeling that his crews weren't adequately trained for such an action. Shortly after his discussion with Lee, Mitscher asked Spruance for permission to head west during the night to reach what would be an ideal launch position for an all-out aerial assault on the enemy force at dawn.

Found it in on Wiki but i read it in Hammels book.

Thanks - interesting.

It makes sense with the new USN BB's being so much newer than the IJN BB's. Some had been around longer, but still it was the right choice. Risk-reward. To put those ships and all those sailors at risk the chances of success with minimal damage should be way in your favor, and there were still those excellent IJN torpedoes that could change an open sea night engagement in a hurry. Hit 'em with planes!

In a day engagement they could stand off and be in much better control with superior long range gunnery. Even then, it's already daylight - hit 'em with planes!

[chesmart]

Agreed Best decision taken but the inner grognard in me would have loved for it to happen.

[mgoldstein]

The Japanese Navy can be bested in night surface battles, but you need to gain experience first. I used my surface ships extensively in the early days of the Japanese offensive in nighttime commerce raids and shore bombardments. Sometimes, however, it's better to be lucky than good.

Battle of Port Moresby