High Altitude Sweep Rant

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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: Walloc
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I tested this a bit in earlier thread and pilot experience & defensive skill are big factors and will offset altitude advantage. So if defender is more experienced, he will usually win the fight even when enemy has altitude advantage.

Hi Sardaukar,

I saw that test and agree ur conclusions in what it showed as u did it.
Non the less considering the reported avg exp in this case 77+ and the fact that he loses 20 out of 21 planes = 95% loss rate. I would say i do hafta wonder. I cant imagien tho the brit starts with good figther pilots that they are at that level as OP zeroes had. Ofc i could be wrong, and there can be many more factors involved that OP doesnt provide. Fatigue and so on.
Maybe OP can ask his opponent on those numbers and divulge more info, like both fatigue levels and that would help.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Yes, there are lots of other factors, example airplane statistics (Speed, MVR. DUR, Climb etc.). I agree that strato-sweep is bit stupid and would like to see it "nerfed" somewhat. Possible solution would be to make very high altitude band flying to produce lot more pilot and plane fatigue (as it would in real life).

Split CAP helps a bit, but house rules are about only thing that really helps. I like the restriction that "no sweeps above highest MVR band of plane", which prevents stratospheric flying and still gives edge to plane that historically was good high-altitude plane. Flying at 38500ft etc. all the time is just plain silly [8D]. CAP could be set to any altitude. This way altitude advantage could still be there, but not with full force.
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Puhis
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Flying at 38500ft etc. all the time is just plain silly [8D]. CAP could be set to any altitude. This way altitude advantage could still be there, but not with full force.

Why is 38500 ft silly? It's not even 12000 meters... [:D]

I think stratosphere CAP is almost as bad as strato sweep. For example Hurricane CAP at 32000 ft is just invincible, unless sweep flies higher...
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by bilbow »

ORIGINAL: mbatch729

Ok, been away from the forums for a while, but understand from my opponent that there is debate going on about high altitude sweeps. Below is a typical result from our game. And even though the results say 12 lost, it was actually 20. His high altitude sweeps are KILLING my fighters. The below group average experience was 77. I've had similar results against groups that have 85-90 experience. Plenty of air support/supplies/etc at the bases. I'm to the point of grounding all my fighters. No point in putting up CAP...

Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 12 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 36000 feet *
CAP engaged:
Kanoya Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (21 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
21 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 32810
Raid is overhead

I'm Mbatch729's opponent. I feel his pain. The screenie is of the group that did the deed prior to the sweep. From it's stats it's a pretty average group, mediocre leader, average experience. Pilot skills are air 67, defend 63. Indeed it was flying (in error) at extreme range without drop tanks.

I agree with Mark. There's a problem here.





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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I just want to point out that it first long was said by the responsible person everything is fine until we reached the point that the air team lead actually was admitting it would be kind of an exploit.

Castor,

I don't remember Elf saying it was an exploit. There are lots of threads and lots of posts so maybe I missed it. I remember him saying there were ways to counter it to lessen its effects. That and it was part of the deal - some planes are better at higher altitudes and that altitude really matters.

Early on IJ has better high altitude planes, later the Allies do. Historically sweeps went in high to try and dive on CAP. My first sweep went in at 25,000ft and was higher than CAP (forget their altitude). My second sweep at 25,000 but CAP was at 30,000. My third at 35,000... until CAP was flying at ~35,000 (max I think) and my sweeps were going in at 37,000 or 38,000 (whatever was max for them).

Finally we settled on a HR of 25,000 max (at first it was 30,000 but some significant models of my planes can't do that). This reduces the altitude issues, but why bother? Early on IJ had the advantage, later the Allies did, so why neuter that? I favor it just being part of the game and using all the tools to try and work through it.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Czert »

Is here spoting chance afected by altitude ? I think IRL if we have two sweeps and one is at 10k and second at 30k, then 10k have much better chance of seeing upper bandints that oposite side ( trails in higher altitudes, and higher planes dont fly in sun forever :) ) . Yes, altitude gives you great advantage in combat, but you must spoot your enemies fist.
So, in effect, if lower sweep have plane with nice climb rate, it can make life harder for upper ones.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I just want to point out that it first long was said by the responsible person everything is fine until we reached the point that the air team lead actually was admitting it would be kind of an exploit.

Castor,

I don't remember Elf saying it was an exploit. There are lots of threads and lots of posts so maybe I missed it. I remember him saying there were ways to counter it to lessen its effects. That and it was part of the deal - some planes are better at higher altitudes and that altitude really matters.

Early on IJ has better high altitude planes, later the Allies do. Historically sweeps went in high to try and dive on CAP. My first sweep went in at 25,000ft and was higher than CAP (forget their altitude). My second sweep at 25,000 but CAP was at 30,000. My third at 35,000... until CAP was flying at ~35,000 (max I think) and my sweeps were going in at 37,000 or 38,000 (whatever was max for them).

Finally we settled on a HR of 25,000 max (at first it was 30,000 but some significant models of my planes can't do that). This reduces the altitude issues, but why bother? Early on IJ had the advantage, later the Allies did, so why neuter that? I favor it just being part of the game and using all the tools to try and work through it.


After looong discussions about it being right or wrong we came to the point of total amazement when TheElf posted in one of the threads about Sputnik sweeps saying that "people will always find a way to exploit the engine and Sputnik sweeps is one way to do it" ... that´s not a quote, just going from memory, but he clearly said it was an exploit. He also gave some advise about hrs in that matter. That was the point where I was hoping to see something changed. Still hoping...

perhaps I can dig out that post...
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witpqs
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

I remember that post but I interpreted it differently. He said a lot else in that discussion and in context of all of it I didn't (and don't) see that as saying it's broke.

If you focus only on that statement you might get that impression, though.

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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

The Elf definitely didn't say it's broken. He said that people will always find ways to exploit game system.

There is reason why fighter pilots say "energy is life". Energy comes in 2 forms, kinetic and potential, former is speed, latter is altitude. Those 2 things were the most important things in Pacific air engagement. Maneuverability was the least important thing for US fighters, while Japanese were maximized for it. And we know who came out of that as winner.

It would be folly to totally take out altitude advantage, because with speed advantage those we the 2 major factors deciding at least the beginning of the air combat.

If one is unwilling or unable to change the style one conducts the air operations, one will always be at disadvantage with how air combat in game is conducted. Like, do you absolutely have to have CAP up against high-altitude sweep consisting of better planes and pilots? Especially if outnumbered?

One should pick the fights that matter, because that's how it was historically done. If base is important enough to be defended by 1 fighter group, it's important enough to be defended by 2. Or more. Numbers matter a lot and with numbers come other tactical solutions like split CAP etc. Check your pilot skills, pull back inexperienced units and train them. Rest your air units and let enemy sweep empty air, bring in AA units to defend against bombers, turn on CAP after enemy has gotten frustrated about empty sweeps. There is lot of things that can be done.

And if playing against opponent who doesn't want common sense to rule with some house rules, what can I say. There is always ways to "game the engine" and always people willing to do that, no matter what would be deemed realistic.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by CapAndGown »

This is silly. All these people defend the system as being perfectly ok and then turn around and suggest using house rules. No house rules are needed if the system is just fine, gang. We have house rules about political points and restricted units because the system doesn't account for walking across national borders. We have house rules about strategic bombing in China because the supply system, when it comes to the Chinese, does not reflect reality. Most of the games in the AAR section now have house rules about max altitude. If that doesn't tell you something is wrong, well, I give up.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Terminus »

Good. I hope others will follow your example.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by tigercub »

The game is not perfect and never will be but its still better than any war game ever made so give it a rest...unless you can help bring the game forward.

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castor troy
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by castor troy »

He clearly said the stratosweeps are an exploit and he suggested to use house rules.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Good. I hope others will follow your example.


sounds like the pope... in 1402
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by KenchiSulla »

There are more factors though. Here an interesting example: everything happens the same day

LRCAP has altitude advantage. P40E intercept the formation. After one plane takes damage about 4 break off (low morale?). P40E dive in on Oscar in next sequence, then I see another "intercept" message in the POSTAIR phase. Combat and end
Morning Air attack on Imphal , at 60,40

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 31
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 21



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 12


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 4 damaged
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed



Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 17

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40E Warhawk (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
23rd FG/75th FS with P-40E Warhawk (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
23rd FG/76th FS with P-40E Warhawk (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

CAP has altitude advantage. These are fresh planes because one of my bomber groups bombed this hex without being intercepted. Look at how late the sweep is spotted. While the raid flies lower the the LRCAP the OSCARS get the dive on P40E and the P40E are massacred in the first phase. P40E only return fire in the last few sequences. If Oscars had 6 .50s none of the P40Es would have survived here. It seemed that the "recalled" planes also get shot at but not sure

Afternoon Air attack on Imphal , at 60,40

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 19



Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 12


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40E Warhawk (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
23rd FG/75th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
23rd FG/76th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
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mbatch729
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by mbatch729 »

In answer to some of the inquiries, this was the first turn the group had flown. They had been on R & R at a behind the lines base for a while. Don't know what the defensive ratings of the pilots were.

If this had been an isolated event, I wouldn't have brought it up, but would have chalked it up to a bad day in the war. However, it has been happening consistenly over multiple bases. Regarding the post on picking where to defend, etc., with things as they are I can't defend ANY base. High altitude sweeps decimate the fighter groups protecting it, and then the bombers come in and bomb at will.

Will spend some time reading over the house rules I can find on it.

One note regarding my opponent. He's a great oppoonent and plays fairly. We've had games going since the early UV days. So in no way should my rant about the sweeps be taken as anything negative about him or his playing style.
Later,
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Walloc »

From what i've read there seems to be a few different HR regarding altitude. These are the ones i've seen.

1. No sweeps/CAP higher than at the best manuver band of the plane.
My short take, in regards what it measn to dive and that factor only.
Starts out with both sides generally maxed at the same altitude for both side.
Tojo/P-38(not that many p-38 to go around tho initially) alters that, but then as 43 goes by the US planes gets some advantange tho not fully. British planes genrally behind on the curve. Late war jap can come back and get advantage if certain planes are researched.

2 Same as above just using the 2nd best manuver band taking teh altitude up a notch compared to above.

3. A set max altitude for both sides through out teh war. 20, 25, 29, 30ish seems to be the used ones.
My short take, in regards what it measn to dive and that factor only.
That "eliminates" the dive tho not in totally in reality. CAPs will have to climb and some times doesnt reach the height so in some cases but much much less than with out HR u will see sides getting dive bonus. Generally the advantage when its there, is on the side of sweeps.

4. Same as above but altering the altitude by year. So starting at for exaple 15k then goes higher and higher as the years go by to allow the allied supercharged planes to use that advantage of higher altitudes.
Take same as above.

5. Same as above 2 but lets the CAP have a slight advantage of usually 1k to try and even out the times the dive bonus applies.

Hope it helps u research stuff, fell free to ask questions if stuff isnt clear

Rasmus
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mbatch729
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by mbatch729 »

Walloc,

Thanks for the summaries on the HR's. I'll talk w/my opponent and see which one we think would be best.
Later,
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by SuluSea »

I believe the air model is fantastic as currently modelled. I'd like to see altitudes come down for historical purposes but realistically sweepers have the initiative and altitude advantage they should win most if not all of the battles. My only issue is with the heights air conflicts take place, I'd like to see the same modelling but everything dropped down to a combat ceiling.

Japanese bases with the weaker radar if any at all will be at a severe disadvantage because they may not know a raid is on top of them until it is much too late.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Occasionly, a brushfire will break out. I am guessing one might start up now.   [:D] 


Hee...hee, I pretty much called this one right.[:D]

BTW, I am thinking it is time to start a new thread on this subject.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I just want to point out that it first long was said by the responsible person everything is fine until we reached the point that the air team lead actually was admitting it would be kind of an exploit.

Castor,

I don't remember Elf saying it was an exploit. There are lots of threads and lots of posts so maybe I missed it. I remember him saying there were ways to counter it to lessen its effects. That and it was part of the deal - some planes are better at higher altitudes and that altitude really matters.

Early on IJ has better high altitude planes, later the Allies do. Historically sweeps went in high to try and dive on CAP. My first sweep went in at 25,000ft and was higher than CAP (forget their altitude). My second sweep at 25,000 but CAP was at 30,000. My third at 35,000... until CAP was flying at ~35,000 (max I think) and my sweeps were going in at 37,000 or 38,000 (whatever was max for them).

Finally we settled on a HR of 25,000 max (at first it was 30,000 but some significant models of my planes can't do that). This reduces the altitude issues, but why bother? Early on IJ had the advantage, later the Allies did, so why neuter that? I favor it just being part of the game and using all the tools to try and work through it.

It's WAD, but the influential designer is a hot pilot, not an aeronautical engineer. In reality, lower had an advantage at target acquisition, higher's dive advantage reached saturation at about 4000-5000 feet superior altitude, and anything higher than that was delayed in intercepting.

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