If I Own CMBB why get PCO?

[Mad Russian]

The way I see it there are several differences between PCO and CMBB.

Although PC is always referred to as a CM clone that's not accurate. Unless silver is a clone of gold. They are related in the same way.

CM and PC are both games that are at the lower tactical level. The same as ASL and a myriad of other board wargames went before CM. They are in the same genre.

If you are happy with CMBB and IT STILL PLAYS FOR YOU then there may be little reason for you to buy PCO. CMBB doesn't play on my new machine. It might if I were to invest the time to research the fixes.

But I'm not going to and here are my reasons for supporting PCO with my playing time instead of CMBB.

*CMBB won't play on my new machine. PCO does. That's only one reason. Where is any ongoing support for CMBB? Has it been back coded to allow it to play on my machine like all of the PC series? Has it been upgraded like CMAK for Vista? If it has I haven't seen it. There is a total lack of support for CMBB, at the current time, that I'm aware of.

*PCO is the third installment in an ongoing series of games. CMBB is in a series, seemingly, no longer supported by it's parent company.

*PCO was made by wargamers with no limits on what we could make changes to. The original project was to be a simple patch. I would say it's anything but that. Matrix supported us even when the ride wasn't all that smooth. We are all gamers with CM backgrounds so we know what we liked from CM and what we didn't like. We also know what we like from CC and ASL, Panzer 44 and Fireteam Leader, and....well you get the picture. We are wargamers. We want the best of them all rolled into one. We couldn't do everything we wanted in a free update but we went so far as to be offering you an entirely new gaming experience. I don't see CMBB doing any of those things.

Each gamer has their own likes and dislikes. This forum absolutely shows that. Our group is pretty diverse. From those wanting mostly a game to those wanting mostly a sim and those that want a blend. PCO is the result of our efforts. I think we did a really good job. The game plays great and has as much history and factual data as we could get under the hood in this amount of time. My own personal preference is to have all the historical data under the hood, to be there but to be hidden away and let the game play be as smooth as possible. PCO does that for me.

This is the game we wanted to make and play! We made it and we play it!

*PCO can be made to do anything tactical. PCO was developed to be as wide open as possible. You can add any vehicle you like, we added the Maus so we know you can too, weapons system, squad, fireteam, nationality, gun, blast area, animation, texture, structure....ANYTHING.

You could do any time period with the engine if you wanted. We could add Centurions or T-72's and it would simply be a matter of doing the mod and fixing the data files. We know that because we tried it already.

These are not just different skins over a set data base. The data base can be modded to support the new data for new weapons systems.

*Game play doesn't have holes in it. All units respond the same. There is no such thing as a JS-2m refusing to fire at a King Tiger from ambush with flanking shot. There is no Dance of Death while entire platoons of tanks reverse into each other and then are shot to junk by the enemy.

*Game turns can be made to play however you like. Whether that is with or without a reaction phase. Whether you want 40/60/80 second turns.

*The map maker is quick and easy. For those that want it to be it can also make actual pieces of ground associated with battles. Actual height and terrain maps can be generated from satellite mapping or you can use whatever other sources you like.

* A full editor which can include the ability to use any structure ever made. You can make the Reichstag and put it in a scenario if you like. Water, both still and moving is differentiated, weather, fog, time of day, lighting conditions, shadows, etc. is all under your control.

Okay then, enough about the box credential differences.

Let's move on to game play.

CMBB and PCO play fairly similar with some very important distinctions.

*PCO has had the entire orders structure reworked. The orders structure is leader based with the ability to micro manage if that's what you want. I normally go through an entire Bn OOB to give orders in about 10 minutes. Even if I have to give specific orders to someone that is quick and easy. I can click on the unit and then move anywhere on the map and give the orders I want. I don't have to start at the unit and go outward from there losing my way and starting over. This is a very handy item and saves lots of time when you are issuing orders.

PCO has formations in the orders selections such as bounding overwatch and charge. These are nationality specific.

* PCO has unit ID coins that are fully functional. I get tremendously more information from a PCO ID coin that I do from a CMBB ID label.

In PCO the ID coins can be modded to look like anything you want. You want NATO symbols to show on them you can do that. You want Red Star/Black Cross you can do that too.

The ID coins are fully functional in regards to issuing orders as well. Click on the ID coin and the orders menu comes up. You can the issue orders without ever having seen the actual unit.

The ID coins for enemy units can be targeted. Again, without ever actually seeing the enemy unit.

The ID coins show if a vehicle is buttoned or unbuttoned.

They show if the unit is a leader, a replacement leader or a normal unit member.

*Combat resolution is based on ballistics and accuracy. Not much that you would notice different in game play between the two. As much actual known data for the weaponry we could get went into the combat engine.

* Camera angles and moving around the map is much easier in PCO.

* There is a hot key for everything in PCO. The interface is fast and easy.

* You can turn a tremendous number of options on or off in PCO. In all areas. That includes the map maker, scenario editor, random scenario/campaign editors and game play.

* PCO has all the same immersion factors that CMBB did. The fighting can be extremely intense.

*Artillery has been redone and is a more accurate model now. It doesn't just fire non stop as it does in CMBB until you run out of ammo. It fires for a period until the mission is over and you retarget. Artillery requires a communication link between a leader and the artillery unit. Each leader with a working radio is displayed in the HUD and highlighted for easy identification of who can call in fire when.

*PCO has had each unit in the game researched to supply a time line for the type of ammunition it can use. If APCR wasn't available in a particular time frame it's not in the game for you. Some are more accurate at longer ranges than others. You can find all that in the unit ID that is available during game play if you need it.

* Something I didn't think was going to make much difference to me when we started is the graphics of the game. We have actual aircraft and not just shadows in the game. It makes a tremendous difference to see them doing the attack and watch the bombs falling away and hitting. But not just aircraft. Other areas as well, such as the infantry being flat on their faces when suppressed and dust kicking up around tanks that are under fire but the rounds are missing them.

* Sound has been completely redone. It's all size and distance appropriate.

* Where is the Borg? There is not much Borg spotting in PCO. No computer game is going to do away with some form of Borg spotting at a squad level model. What PCO does is limit what can be seen from each unit. If you physically can't see it then it's not represented on the map at all when you give orders to your unit. You can see all units that your forces can see when you click on the map to determine units in contact and what would be reported to you as the commander but each unit can only physically see what they have an LOS to.

*Each unit/vehicle was researched so that they are as accurate to original as possible. There are no holes in the OOB that we are aware of. No Super Stug's that can't be killed. Even if there are and we didn't find them any modder can fix that issue by redoing the data table for that vehicle.

Before we go there, all data for all aspects of the game must match up or the scenario won't play. Sorry, I just knew where you were going with your next rant mode turned on.....

* Campaigns actually work as advertised. Complete with core units that go forward with each battle, a force pool you can pick from each battle, medals, advances in experience and abilities. This is the way a campaign should work.

*PBEM - TCP/IP. Using Drop Box you can play PCO as a combination of PBEM and TCP/IP without any connections through your ISP or any server. This is quick and easy and the turns can be done either back to back as in TCP/IP or saved for later as in PBEM. This is how I play most often and this is great!


Wrap it all up together and I much prefer to play PCO. I have CMBB on an old XP machine. I haven't played CMBB since before thanksgiving of last year. I've been a pretty active member of the CM community to that point. Now I'm not. I much prefer the gameplay of PCO to CMBB.

I could still be doing things with CMAK and wondering when BFC will update CMBB so my new machine will play it. Instead I've joined this team. I can't imagine anyone seeing that list of changes we made and not realize just how much work we put into this.

If you have your doubts, then wait. There will be those that will buy it and reviews will come out. There will be ladders and tournaments started using PCO. You can watch those and see if you find the same kind of support and enthusiasm you're looking for.

I waited until PCK before becoming a part of the team, because I wanted to see some things, before I went any further myself. So, I fully understand. Very soon you won't have to take our word for it. Others will be telling you as well.

Only you will know if PCO is for you. I just know it's for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Peterk1]

The two reasons I stopped playing CMBB cold about 3 years ago:

1) I had a wonderful scenario in a campaign game (those things that people put together using Excel files and rules to generate quick battles and carry units forward) absolutely ruined because my air support which I spent "points" for always attacked my own units on the march instead of all the Russian trenches, pillboxes on the map. It wasn't random, it happened every time for the 20 times I tested it. Battlefront had no interest in changing air support. I'm stubborn. CMBB hit the trash can.

2) I got VERY turned off after spending 20 minutes plotting fire commands on defense and having CMBB consistently decide to shoot at whatever it felt was best about 2 seconds into my turns. It felt like there wasn't any point really doing much of anything on defense. The game was on rails.

And a minor reason. I love huge scenarios like Red Barricades sized things. They're unplayable really in CMBB. Too much going on. Not enough feedback due to fog of war. Not enough fun. Don't want to sit and watch movies for 2 hours every turn. I went to ASL and was happy for a long while. Got sick of the big rules. I have a feeling PCO waon;t do anything for this last bit, but for 1 and 2, any difference. Do pilots have half a brain and do they get briefed ("Duh, we're supporting an Axis Assault. Maybe we should attack hard targets instead of guys marching across a field leaving our front lines?"). Will units actually listen to my instructions and make me feel like I have some effect on things, especially on defense where I won't be moving around much?

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Peter,

Yes, although friendly fire from air attacks is possible, it's a small chance that gets smaller with the experience of the pilot. Air support is generally a significant benefit and on rare occasions something you curse.

I think the interface in Ostfront, including the HUD and unit icons and the full battle message log that can be clicked on to go to an event location and filtered by unit makes it much easier to manage large battles and have good awareness of what's going on.

The Panzer Command design model is based on giving the player responsibility. While there is some "TacAI" it does not generally override your decisions unless your unit has a morale failure, lost its existing target, or completed the orders you gave to it. With that said, we are planning to add more TacAI in the future with the different turn lengths and play styles now possible, but we expect it to be something based more on conditions set by the player and not an automatic override.

Regards,

- Erik

[madorosh]

I just reinstalled PC:Kharkov tonight (and repatched), and the only major stumbling block for me - I bought Operation Winter Storm before Kharkov and played both, including at least one game of PBEM with another human - has been the camera controls. Not just the fact they were different than CM, but it occurred to me tonight after trying again to quickly get into the game that there are three different sets of functions you need to access to move the thing around. In CM you could reasonably expect to use the mouse to move the camera in all aspects, either by moving it to the screen edge, or clicking an arrow button on the in-game interface. In PC - correct me if I'm wrong - you have to manipulate a combination of the mouse, the arrow keys, and the number pad to get the camera to work.

It obviously does function, but I get the impression it is work (i.e. non-intuitive) to actively learn to do this.

Are there shortcuts to making this easier? Is there something I can remap, perhaps? Or slow down? When I am at ground level, if I try and rotate the camera, it just swings wildly and I have no idea what I'm even looking at - and the minimap doesn't even help.

[junk2drive]

In PCK you use the middle mouse button, if you have one, or the scroll wheel "click" if you have one.

Lots of people had trouble understanding this.

Press down and hold your scroll wheel and push the mouse around. It should tilt and rotate the camera. Up down and side scroll is by moving the mouse pointer to the screen edge like most other games.

The arrow and numpad controls are for people with laptops or mouse without middle button or scroll wheel.

Edit to add, there are speed sliders in the options panel.

[junk2drive]

In PC:O you will use the same as above or you can hold the Alt key instead of the mmb or scroll wheel.

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

In PCK you use the middle mouse button, if you have one, or the scroll wheel "click" if you have one.

Lots of people had trouble understanding this.

Press down and hold your scroll wheel and push the mouse around. It should tilt and rotate the camera. Up down and side scroll is by moving the mouse pointer to the screen edge like most other games.

The arrow and numpad controls are for people with laptops or mouse without middle button or scroll wheel.

I rotated the mouse wheel and it did nothing - but of course I was not pressing. I had not RTFM of course...

EDIT: Okay, a quick boot-up and that is much easier; thanks. I see the notes above mention some improvements still, which will be interesting to see.

[junk2drive]

I have a scroll wheel but it is very stiff to press. With the alt key for camera and the spacebar for pause, I can rest my fingers on them. When something catches my attention, I press the spacebar to pause the playback, then use the scroll wheel to zoom in or out, and alt with the mouse to rotate or tilt. It works better than it sounds.

[junk2drive]

Also, don't forget that you can click the mini map to jump to anywhere. Saves a lot of that edge scrolling.

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Also, don't forget that you can click the mini map to jump to anywhere. Saves a lot of that edge scrolling.

Yeah, that much I remembered. It was the angle view I couldn't remember - but the mouse wheel seems to work fine for me now.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Also, don't forget that you can click the mini map to jump to anywhere. Saves a lot of that edge scrolling.

Yeah, that much I remembered. It was the angle view I couldn't remember - but the mouse wheel seems to work fine for me now.

one of the things that used to drive me crazy was the "bounce" i would get with PCK if I tried to get my viewing anlge to close to the ground. well, that annoyance has been fixed in PCO.

thanks
rick

[Geordie]

My biggest problem with the game is that it just runs so slow on my PCs. It seems to take an absolute age to crunch the turns out. Imy main machine runs vista. Will PCO run any better, or is there something I'm not doing right here?

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: Geordie

My biggest problem with the game is that it just runs so slow on my PCs. It seems to take an absolute age to crunch the turns out. Imy main machine runs vista. Will PCO run any better, or is there something I'm not doing right here?

I know this isn't a good answer, but that depends. PCO has been optimized and uses some later .Net technology. But there has also been a lot added, so it's doing more. It's good that you have PCk since that means you'll be able to determine that for yourself.

But be aware, the 2k maps may be a challenge for your system. That and larger force values. But you will also have a chance to play on smaller maps so that may help.

rick

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Also, don't forget that you can click the mini map to jump to anywhere. Saves a lot of that edge scrolling.

Yeah, that much I remembered. It was the angle view I couldn't remember - but the mouse wheel seems to work fine for me now.

Also, double-clicking on any unit in the HUD or single-clicking on any message in the event log will jump you to the location.

[Erik Rutins]

Geordie,

What are your system specs? In general, Ostfront performs significantly better than Kharkov on the systems I've tested it with, but there comes a point where system specs are low enough that it's hard to see much benefit from those optimizations.

Regards,

- Erik

[pzgndr]

*Game turns can be made to play however you like. Whether that is with or without a reaction phase. Whether you want 40/60/80 second turns.

I like this change. The 40-sec turn and reaction phase sequence was something I just couldn't wrap my mind around too well. 1-minute turns like CM and TacOps and other games are preferable, for me. Perhaps others as well. Either way, it's nice to have more options to be able to play the way I want to play. Thanks!! [&o]

[Thomm]

Where is any ongoing support for CMBB? Has it been back coded to allow it to play on my machine like all of the PC series? Has it been upgraded like CMAK for Vista? If it has I haven't seen it. There is a total lack of support for CMBB, at the current time, that I'm aware of.

The "total lack of support" for CMBB may be related to the fact that it was released 8 years ago.

Best regards,
Thomm

[thewood1]

Yeah, but BFC still sells it.  No support is understanable if its not generating any money, but new players still show up having bought it.  At least PC has a roadmap forward with support.

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: Thomm

Where is any ongoing support for CMBB? Has it been back coded to allow it to play on my machine like all of the PC series? Has it been upgraded like CMAK for Vista? If it has I haven't seen it. There is a total lack of support for CMBB, at the current time, that I'm aware of.

The "total lack of support" for CMBB may be related to the fact that it was released 8 years ago.

Best regards,
Thomm

And yet it still retails for a higher price than their most recent version, Shock Force.

CMBB at amazon

CMSF at amazon

Even CM:BO has a higher retail price, and it debuted over ten years ago.

CMBO at amazon

If you do something right, it retains a high value.

That's amazon; it's the same thing at Gamer's Gate, where Shock Force is $9.99, but sometimes goes on sale for 50% off. CM:BB is still listed at $25.00.

CMSF at Gamer's Gate, CMBB at Gamer's Gate

CMBB is still making a lot of money - perhaps even more than CM:SF, we'll never know since the sales figures aren't released. It was making enough money for BFC to consider an operational "campaign" layer, and even devoted scarce coding time to it. And companies still charge 250% more for it than the games created with the new engine. Either the subject material (Eastern Front) is more popular, or something, but I presume those prices aren't drawn out of hats and are based on something tangible like sales figures.

[Erik Rutins]

The main reason MR re-posted this here from GameSquad is that we just get this question a lot and his opinion is a valuable one to add to the discussion. I don't want to come across as being critical of CM, which is a game I hold in high esteem. We do think there are good reasons if you want an updated tactical wargaming experience that is similar to CM but in some ways improved and improving, you should take a look at Panzer Command. We're providing the Ostfront release free to Kharkov owners and planning an updated demo for the Ostfront release because we want everyone to have a chance to give it a try.

Regards,

- Erik