proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

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Fishman
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Neither, I didn't understand what it was doing until you just told me. I used to just ignore it figuring it was being silly.
Well, then, apparently, it failed to affect your relationship for good or ill.
Bartje
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Bartje »

But shoudn't he have gotten some sense of succes from lording over me? Shouldn't that have temporarily cured his insecurity? Did it do that?

How did that affect his Empire before he lorded over me then? Did he delay building a station out of insecurity perhaps????

Insecure aliens lol [:)]

By ignoring him I probably gave him an anxiety disorder as well!
Fishman
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: Bartje

But shoudn't he have gotten some sense of succes from lording over me? Shouldn't that have temporarily cured his insecurity? Did it do that?
That depends on what his motive is. Have you ever considered that maybe the AI, or perhaps an opponent, might do such a thing not out of some insecurity on its part, but as an attempt to manipulate YOU? Maybe the AI is attempting to manipulate you. Whether it works or, that depends on you.

How did that affect his Empire before he lorded over me then? Did he delay building a station out of insecurity perhaps????[/quote]I'm pretty sure a sense of insecurity prompts you to build stations rather than postpone them. The more interesting thing is how it affects your relationships: Do you feel more inclined to wipe him from the face of the galaxy for his obnoxiousness, or do you feel inclined to go earn some more money and let him live for a bit so he might offer again when you have more money? Both of these have effects on you, the player, that cannot be quantified in a simple +4/-4 relationship modifier.
Bartje
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Bartje »

I think we have discovered the root of the DW: AI's agression issues!

The more agressive it is, the more insecure!

Ohhh what a horrible existence it must be in a chaotic aggressive universe!

Erik, what have you done! You've created horribly insecure AI monsters!! [;)]
Jamoid
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RE: proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

Post by Jamoid »

while i agree with your post...
ORIGINAL: Bartje
Imagine the United states trying to sell nuclear weapons to the newly founded states of Kaberaki-Stan in central asia for 50 trillion dollars.

i find this situation most believable.
Bartje
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RE: proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

Post by Bartje »

Yes, I imagine its one way of solving national debt [:D]
Fishman
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RE: proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

Post by Fishman »

Of course, they'd never have the money to pay for that, so it would be a joke deal that never passes. In fact, I think it's pretty much intended to BE a joke offer. Note how the AI is suddenly uninterested if you call them back and offer the same deal with more money. I once did something like that for real. I had this thing, I didn't really want to sell it at all, so when someone asked, I named a ridiculously high, and totally unreasonable price...and they took it. I was like "Buh?".
Bartje
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RE: proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

Post by Bartje »

Haha, the AI was probably feeling insecure so he took the offer fearing that you and your wicked allies would laugh at him for being so poor.
 
Now that I think about it, the DW AI is a bit pessimistic....
 
[;)] 
Jamoid
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RE: proposition: Realistic Racial Tech trades

Post by Jamoid »

i know where this is leading. you think the AI is played by fishman don't you?

he definitely appears to have sufficient knowledge of the game to play multiple empires against multiple people at the same time.

on topic - i honestly find racial techs in general a little silly. i am all for different races having *unique* techs, anything to differentiate them and add a little flavour, providing balance is kept. just giving them an endgame tech right from the start though is neither balanced, nor unique.
taltamir
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Fishman

If the Z4 was a mere shield recharger, it would become really nice in the late game, but give absolutely no worthwhile advantage in the beginning. All the racial techs are aimed at giving you some kind of advantage in the beginning. Since the Zenox themselves suck as a race and have no worthwhile attributes, their special is a technolergy, which, in the beginning of the game, makes their ships basically invulnerable, a significant advantage as no one can kill you! If it merely gave you +50% recharge, it would provide no advantage at all because the starting shields have no recharge worth speaking of, and 50% of squat is still squat. The fact that it has best recharge rate in the game, regardless of its magnitude, makes it so you can pump the recharge rate and make a ship capable of tanking through anything the AI can throw at it for some time, a completely invulnerable ship. This advantage fades as weapons become more powerful, but its point is what it gives you at the beginning. Most of the Races of Sucky Statness have a special technolergy that makes them not suck so much, or even awesome. Like the Dhayut: All their attributes stink horribly, but the drive alone sells them, even though it's not truly unique.
ORIGINAL: Bartje

I still feel Racial tech should be unique, flavor wise and advantagous.

Why do you disagree Fishman? Do you disagree?
I have no opinion on this matter. My statement is merely that, as it is, the racial techs are not unique and there is therefore no reason that a player should be completely unwilling to ever part with it for any price.

Alright then, a shield amplifier, gives +50% recharge AND +50% total shield strength. Depending on how its priced it should provide a very healthy boost to their total shields (especially on bigger ships / bases where you have ~20-40 shields; naturally don't put one on tiny ships with only one shield)
ORIGINAL: Jamoid

i know where this is leading. you think the AI is played by fishman don't you?

he definitely appears to have sufficient knowledge of the game to play multiple empires against multiple people at the same time.

on topic - i honestly find racial techs in general a little silly. i am all for different races having *unique* techs, anything to differentiate them and add a little flavour, providing balance is kept. just giving them an endgame tech right from the start though is neither balanced, nor unique.

That I agree with... those races should get a large boost in RESEARCH in a specific field and the ABILITY to get a higher end game tech there...
that is... the zenox shouldn't start out with the megatron, they should have a 100% boost to shield research and be the only ones who can invent the megatron. Maybe throw in starting with shields at tech level 3.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
taltamir
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by taltamir »

interesting. I seem to be able to just research all the "racial" techs now, they just appear at the end of their specific tech tree and are then researched.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Bartje
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Bartje »

So what does this change mean exactly? They aren't unique anymore?
taltamir
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Bartje

So what does this change mean exactly? They aren't unique anymore?

it means that certain races start out with certain techs (which they refuse to trade) which eventually anyone can research IF they max out the tech tree... but it is very much end game type of stuff... for most races and most games, they will be limited to the races which get them...
I like that.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Astorax
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Astorax »

Unless you find some of the many, many high-tech ships laying about space and retire them as a matter of course. Then you might max out several tech fields while its still early game.
taltamir
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Astorax

Unless you find some of the many, many high-tech ships laying about space and retire them as a matter of course. Then you might max out several tech fields while its still early game.

You only get a pitiful bonus from retiring ships. it is much better to use those ships for war (as they are awesomely strong)... as a bonus, you can retire them for the tech eventually anyways as you develop the ability to build your own comparable ships.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Astorax
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Astorax »

Well, maybe in 1.04, but in my 1.03 games that is definitely not the case. I have maxxed out fields with found ships before, not always sure, but it happens. Not "pitiful" at all. Just jumping a couple iterations of some component at once is a "big thing" in the early game.
taltamir
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by taltamir »

ORIGINAL: Astorax

Well, maybe in 1.04, but in my 1.03 games that is definitely not the case. I have maxxed out fields with found ships before, not always sure, but it happens. Not "pitiful" at all. Just jumping a couple iterations of some component at once is a "big thing" in the early game.

It is pitiful at 1.03 as well... Now, if you find several dozen ships at once that is a whole different manner. mmm, it might also depend on research speed (I am playing on lowesT).

But a ship with 10 shields 7, 10 engines 4, 2 vectoring engine 4, 3 reactors 5, etc... will only give you one boost to one random tech. which is both pitiful AND trivial compared to actually keeping the ship and using it...
A neigh invincible ship that will single handedly kill any pirate base, any enemy starbase, any enemy fleet it comes across? or a small boost to your tech that might let you unlock an extra tech... which will not make your current ships even close to as powerful as the ship you scrapped...

of course, it very much depends on the ships you find (smaller ships? scrap them), and it very much depends on how far you are behind (its better to keep a ship until you are almost at the tech level it posses and thenscrap it).
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.
Astorax
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Astorax »

You are counting pitiful as a total tech boost. Fine. It only jumps me several components of ONE tech field. Fine. I'll take that and I don't think it pitiful. It might not be as much as one would think it should give but its a huge boost all at once. Especially in the early game.
Cindar
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Cindar »

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I would never trade a unique tech and lose that massive strategic ability and hence neither should the A.I.

Doing so gives you such nice relations bonuses that you pretty much make a permanent ally unless you intentionally start trying to screw things up with them. The problem is that the AI will almost never have enough money to afford your racial tech. Hell, they rarely have enough money to afford my regular tech. But sometimes there will be a civilization that I can buy a lot of standard tech from, then when they have the money to buy my racial tech I sell them that. In the end we are both far better off, we are very strong allies, and I haven't lost any money.

ORIGINAL: taltamir
You only get a pitiful bonus from retiring ships. it is much better to use those ships for war (as they are awesomely strong)... as a bonus, you can retire them for the tech eventually anyways as you develop the ability to build your own comparable ships.
I find that the bonus is often enough to shoot me up an entire tech level or two even into the midgame. Besides, when you find the ship it is put into your ship designs so you can copy it as you see fit (as long as you have construction yards big enough, of course).
Fishman
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RE: proposition: Realistic Unique Tech trades

Post by Fishman »

It's a bug that you are able to construct ships with technolergy you don't actually have, and I do not think you can then rescrap those ships to gain more research in any event.
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