Solution for the 4 engine discussion

[Athius]

@dbfw190

Thats true, he did what he was expected to do and he did it very well, but I don't agree that would make him a hero because I think the very thing that he did, necessary or not, was despicable.
History is full of war criminals who where very good at "doing what had to be done" but I would not call them heroes.

But, of course, this could apply to virtually every war hero. You're right, war tends to mess up morals and ethics either way

[Swenslim]

Common, we all know that LeMay deserves to be hanged alongside japan military criminals, but unfortunately - winners are never blamed





*The Japanese leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.*

Sorry, but lets look on this stupid phrase from another point of view - *The USA leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks (haijacked airlainers) on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.* - Usama Ben Laden.

And what are you going to say now ?

Killing of civilian people can never be justified.

[Whisper]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser
hurray hurray, what a great American hero Major General Curtis LeMay must have been.

Yes indeed. Maybe not a hero, but a fundamentally important air general whose ideas and operations helped end a very nasty international conflict. A dork personally maybe, but nobody says you have to be Mr niceguy to have your poop together.

[edit] So sorry, didn't realize the thread had devolved into the usual libero/politico doo doo. Please ignore.

[chesmart]

@P.Hausser
@Swenslim

         I am not American and up to a few months ago i would have agreed with your point of view regarding the bombings but after reading Downfall my opinion has changed regarding the Fire bombings and A-bomb attacks. Before commenting I would recommend that you spend 39 dollars and buy the book and then hopefully you will understand that the IJA was planning to fight the allied armies with total mobisation on the beaches the cost in human lives had Truman not decided to do these attacks would have been far higher (Probably 3-4 Million Japanese Casualties at least) The IJA was planning to mobilise men and women up ages 15-45 to act as militia and fight guerrilla warfare while the IJA would be Inland.

      
 

[P.Hausser]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

Common, we all know that LeMay deserves to be hanged alongside japan military criminals, but unfortunately - winners are never blamed





*The Japanese leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.*

Sorry, but lets look on this stupid phrase from another point of view - *The USA leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks (haijacked airlainers) on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.* - Usama Ben Laden.

And what are you going to say now ?

Killing of civilian people can never be justified.

Quite well said.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

ORIGINAL: Grit



In parts of the city, the fires joined up to create a firestorm. The fires burned so fiercely and they consumed so much oxygen, that people in the locality suffocated. It is thought that 100,000 people were killed in the raid and another 100,000 injured. The Americans lost 14 B-29’s; under the 5% rate of loss that was considered to be ‘acceptable’.

hurray hurray, what a great American hero Major General Curtis LeMay must have been.

This post is typical of your baiting Anti-American inflammatory posts of opportunity. Whatever your damage is, you should be banned, and this thread locked.

And Lemay was a great American hero. But only because he had to be. Ask yourself though Hausser..why did he have to be a hero? If it weren't for men like Lemay half the world would be speaking German, and the other half would have been beheaded at the edge of a Samurai Sword.

[P.Hausser]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

If it weren't for men like Lemay half the world would be speaking German, and the other half would have been beheaded at the edge of a Samurai Sword.

Once Japan was encircled, and had no relevant way of obtaining the necessary resources to wage war,
then murdering civilians in the 100's of thousands are in my book not just. It makes it less just that "courts" post WW2 found German and Japanese high ranking officers guilty for conducting the same form for attacks on Chinese and British citys.

I think you have to agree with me that bombing civilians in 1944 and 1945 was totally unnecessary to achieve victory, its not like you need to invade Japan, just isolate it and its government will fall once the situation gets hard enough. (Or so thought the OSS at least).

[wyrmmy]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser
I think you have to agree with me that bombing civilians in 1944 and 1945 was totally unnecessary to achieve victory, its not like you need to invade Japan, just isolate it and its government will fall once the situation gets hard enough. (Or so thought the OSS at least).

Actually, considering the Japanese plans for the conduct of the war in these years, and the small shop nature of their industry, I would venture to say that allied attacks on Japanese cities were easily justifiable.

[Athius]

let's just all agree to disagree and move back to the subject of the topic; this discussion is not heading in a nice direction.


OT: I think that the main problem with the bombers isn't their high durability but their high armament. B17's should survive many hits.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

Common, we all know that LeMay deserves to be hanged alongside japan military criminals, but unfortunately - winners are never blamed





*The Japanese leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.*

Sorry, but lets look on this stupid phrase from another point of view - *The USA leadership had ample time to prepare for air attacks (haijacked airlainers) on their country. They simply did not prepare the civilian population.* - Usama Ben Laden.

And what are you going to say now ?

Killing of civilian people can never be justified.

Quite well said.

Statements like that coming from a guy who took Paul Hausser as a nickname (and maybe an iconic model)? Please allow me to politely laugh at that situation.

LeMay was a heartless trigger-happy asshole who did the job we needed him to do. But to bring him at the same level or below guys like Hausser is simply wrong - and smells bad.

[Athius]

AHUM



let's just all agree to disagree and move back to the subject of the topic; this discussion is not heading in a nice direction.


OT: I think that the main problem with the bombers isn't their high durability but their high armament. B17's should survive many hits.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

ORIGINAL: TheElf

If it weren't for men like Lemay half the world would be speaking German, and the other half would have been beheaded at the edge of a Samurai Sword.

Once Japan was encircled, and had no relevant way of obtaining the necessary resources to wage war,
then murdering civilians in the 100's of thousands are in my book not just. It makes it less just that "courts" post WW2 found German and Japanese high ranking officers guilty for conducting the same form for attacks on Chinese and British citys.

I think you have to agree with me that bombing civilians in 1944 and 1945 was totally unnecessary to achieve victory, its not like you need to invade Japan, just isolate it and its government will fall once the situation gets hard enough. (Or so thought the OSS at least).

I make it a point not to second guess the men who were put in the position that Lemay was put in. Nor do I question the morality or methods of men forced to reconcile their own demons against the demons of an enemy whose lust for widespread death to all peoples not of their liking precipitated those methods.

Lemay didn't start the war, he finished it.

I don't know if you've ever seen war first hand, but I have. It is a disgusting, brutal business best conducted quickly and efficiently with overwhelming force such that those innocents who are forced to suffer it can at least be spared a prolonged existence in it.

For you to sit back with 20/20 hindsight free of any moral dilemma or difficult choices and condemn or judge men like Lemay is cowardice, and you should be ashamed of yourself. I'd like to see how you react to modern day Armageddon. If you were in the same position, which you've clearly shown is incomprehensible to you, I'd like to be a fly on the wall and hear your altruistic drivel then.


LOCK THIS THREAD PLEASE.

[Athius]

@ Elf Hauser and others
The germans bombed a city in my country and managed to end the war in just 5 days.
Did this shorten the war? Yes.
Did this prevent many additional deaths? Probably
Did this completely destroy the city center of the city I was born in and kill hundreds of innocent civilians, including members of my family? Yup.
Form the German point of view, the man who came up with the idea of bombing Rotterdam must be a hero. From my family's point of view that man was a immoral monster. Destroying history, culture and human lives.

I imagen the same can be said about the war in the pacific, (although the difference here is that the Japanese started the war,so in some way the victims are the aggressors at the same time)


Ethics have no place in a war. The war hero who saves a fellow soldier be killing an enemy is a hero to his nation but a monster to the mother of the person he killed. It all depends on your point of view, and both views have a point. So in a way, all of you are right and wrong at the same time.
War is hell.



But please, shall we get back on topic?

[P.Hausser]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Statements like that coming from a guy who took Paul Hausser as a nickname (and maybe an iconic model)? Please allow me to politely laugh at that situation.

[&:][&:] Sorry, its my name.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Athius

@ Elf Hauser and others
The germans bombed a city in my country and managed to end the war in just 5 days.
Did this shorten the war? Yes.
Did this prevent many additional deaths? Probably
Did this completely destroy the city center of the city I was born in and kill hundreds of innocent civilians, including members of my family? Yup.
Form the German point of view, the man who came up with the idea of bombing Rotterdam must be a hero. From my family's point of view that man was a immoral monster. Destroying history, culture and human lives.

I imagen the same can be said about the war in the pacific, (although the difference here is that the Japanese started the war,so in some way the victims are the aggressors at the same time)


Ethics have no place in a war. The war hero who saves a fellow soldier be killing an enemy is a hero to his nation but a monster to the mother of the person he killed. It all depends on your point of view, and both views have a point. So in a way, all of you are right and wrong at the same time.
War is hell.



But please, shall we get back on topic?

Athius you beautifully formulated exactly what I was thinking. [:)]

[Sardaukar]

OT, but...
 
2+ months ago I was travelling via Munich airport, I saw airport worker with nametag "Goebbels", so don't jump into conclusions. [:D]
 
It came to my mind that maybe P. Hausser was nickname after THAT P. Hausser, but as he explained, it is his name, he cannot help that! [:'(]

[Don Bowen]

Warning. Several people are on the verge of banning. A couple have already earned a green button.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Warning. Several people are on the verge of banning. A couple have already earned a green button.

I, for one, would like to see P Hausser's login privileges permamently removed, and have strongly made that recommendation to the forum moderators.

[War History]

I have a few comments, both on topic and off. First of all let me preface these comments as not aimed at any 1 individual nor is it mean to "bash the game", just a general observation from someone that has read the board on and off for probably close to 10 year now. Yes, this is post number 1.

First off, the "on topic" stuff. Now from my personal point of view the design of this game is fundamentally flawed. I say that for the following reasons:

1) It is a game. In any game all players should have an equal chance to win. Note, I am not saying that all players should have an equal chance to win the war, just the game. In that light, in my opinion what the designers should have done first was determine what players are going to score points for. Having that, they next should have determined how many points were scored in the real war by both sides. The third thing that should have been done was the starting point total should have been adjusted accordingly. In this way a player must do better than his historical counterparts in order to "win". The game fails on this.

2) I have played Grigsby games since they first started coming out on the Apple back in the 80s. One of my favorites was called USAAF. It was a simple, fast, fun game. Its counterpart "Fighter Command" was just as good for the same reason. I also had the Talonsoft game 12 O'Clock high (which I can only guess is similar to Bombing the Reich) and it was a failure in comparison. He also had that one a few years back (the name escapes me right now) that was an Axis and Allies on steroids. More detail is not always a good thing. I have read comments from devs telling tales of the old days of playing SPIs Pacific war (of which I have many hours invested in as well). The game seems from an outsider looking in to want the players to make the decisions that hundreds of commanders had to make daily. Why? More detail lends itself to more problems. On one hand I read time and time again about how unrealistic this game is, and on the other hand how close to reality it is. Can not have it both ways.

3) I have noted that several of the people involved with the production of this game have been on these boards making comments to and about people that are hardly what one could consider as professional. Belittling people is hardly the proper way to retain and create more customers. I never bought WitP. I saw Matrix doing these same things back in the UV days. Mr. Frag for example was quite knowledgeable but not terribly tactful. Tankerace I believe it was same deal. Frankly it was because of the problems in UV and the comments from the devs of WitP that kept me from getting that game. And the same is true for this one. Now, please feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for having these feelings, I fully expect it from you because history has shown this to be true.

Now as for the off topic issues. First of all, LeMay. Even the British, who fully embraced the pratice of firebombing, condoned LeMays actions. If the US had lost the war he would have been tried as a war criminal and been hanged. Saying things like this does not mean a person is making anti-American remarks. It is a simple fact. While I may or may not agree with anyone for their feelings on this, banning someone from the board because their opinion is different than yours just goes to reinforce the attitude I was commenting on above.

Secondly, Rotterdam. I read a book many years ago called "the Luftwaffe War Diaries" where it actually discussed that raid in detail. The Germans had actually negotiated a deal to make Rotterdam an open city and had a code in place to warn the bombers off. That code was several red flares. Unfortunately, when the bombers approached, the Dutch opened fire with their AA guns and the flares were not seen. And since they were taking fire, it was clear to the crews that an agreement had not been reached. Rotterdam was a mistake that can be blamed on an accident of war.

[bigred]

Hi Don, I disagree that anyone should be permanetly banded. The beauty of this forum is that many players from all over the planet (most with high IQ) can talk without killing each other.

We do need to stick to the basic discussion of our games, but from time to time some allowance for informed discussion of all topics makes us all better individuals. We all need to also realize Paul Hausser is calling the subject as he sees it.

My comment on war crimes is the loser is hung, war is ugly(if you have held a dead buddy then u understand what I mean) and if you really dont like what someone thinks then challenge him a game.

We should lock the thread if everyone is getting angry.