Tactical Analysis of early Mersing invasion

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

ORIGINAL: topeverest

it goes against the possibilities of explaining what such a large Japanese naval force would be doing so close to Singapore.

Hindsight 20/20 vision aside, the same can be said about the Pearl Harbor strike. It was a gamble, yet they did it.

I fail to see what's gamey about a Dec. 7. Mersing landing. (did it myself in my current PBEM) I say if the Japanese player is willing to run the risk, Singers air power, naval assets including force Z and swarms of subs considered, then why shouldn't he be allowed to do it?
Okay, they didn't in real life, but is that even an argument?

As for the tactical/strategic considerations behind this move, a lot of good arguments have already been mentioned.
My 02 on this is that

A) Malaya and Singapore can be taken faster, eliminating Allied forces in the AO piece meal.

B) Gaining control over the Malacca Strait earlier, effectively closing it. While at the same time making the Indian Ocean a feasible AO for the IJN

C) Singers is (IMO) vital in establishing solid air superiority in the region.

Attila,
The difference is the real world situation. KB approached Hawaii through the northern Pacific because of the lack of commercial shipping to spot them. Anything advancing through the South China Sea would be observed by everybody and their dog.

The first turn special rules are intended to enable the PH attack. Attacking Manila from the Pacific without being detected is less likely but still plausible. Any kind of surprise attack in the South China Sea is completely implausibile. The Kota Bharu invasion was tracked for days, but the intention wasn't clear and the British had the hubris to think they could destroy the Japanese immediately if such an attack materialized.

Approaching through an empty stretch of ocean lacking commercial shipping and behind a weather front is one thing. Launching a "surprise" attack in some of the worlds's busiest sea lanes and blanketed with air search is something altogether different. It's more in the realm of a Romulan cloaking device.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's a good move. I can see how Allied players might object to a Dec 7 landing, but it's easy enough to hold the ships up and land Dec 8th; that's kosher IMO.

It saves a TON of time going down the peninsula by foot

Q-Ball,
I think the problem lies in Japanese players expecting complete freedom of non-historical movement on Dec 7, but denying the Allies the ability to react. Most house rules will not even let the Allies form task forces until Dec 8. I would argue that Dec. 9 might be a more fair date for a detectable attack. Probably the fairest approach of allowing such an early attack that would be an obvious act of war would be to eliminate first turn surprise altogether and allow the Allies complete freedom of movement on Dec 7. In my opinion, if the Japanese player wants Dec 7 surprise he would need to stay away from actions that would be obvious acts of war.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Atilla 60,

PH was an air raid launched from hundreds of miles away

Still, it required total surprise. This after having moved a huge fleet across the Pacific, while at the same time there was no guarantee that the US CVs would be in the harbor. They could just as well have been lurking nearby, pulling an early Midway on Nagumo.
A lot of parameters in this quotation that was out of Japanese hands.

And yet in the real world you overlook certain facts that invalidate your position.

1. From Japan to Hawaiian islands, the KB travelled along a path which was well away from regular shipping routes, thus minimising chances of being spotted from both ships and away from likely vectors which could be patrolled by American search planes.
2. From Indo China to Malay pensinsula, the invasion fleet travelled along shipping channels where discovery from ships or aircraft was quite likely.
3. KB route also took advantage of usual atmospheric conditions, whereas South China Sea did not provide such Vulcan/Klingon cloaking benefit.
4. Notwithstanding the precautions taken, the Malay invasion fleet was discovered before the Pearl Harbor strike. Or did you think that Admiral Phillips simply decided to take Force Z out on a training exercise?
5. The KB struck from international waters, well away from national waters and from an unexpected quarter. The Malay invasion force had to travel close to and ultimately into national territorial waters, along a path which was under surveillance.
6. To land at Mersing entailed the invasion fleet being at sea for longer (thereby increasing its vulnerability to being spotted) and closer to major British airbases.
7. A landing at Mersing would have been intercepted by Force Z and it is quite probably that Force Z would have not been hit by Japanese planes (to not mention what damage it might have inflicted on the invasion fleet)

It always amuses me at how stupid historical figures were. After all how stupid must a professional military staff be to not realise a landing at Mersing is so superior to the real world landing spots. Logistics, absence of perfect intel on enemy dispositions/capabilities, interservice rivalry, the conclusions of the Taiwan Army Research Section, the desire to operate within range of army air cover and to quickly capture airbases, limited time to plan for the operation,...bah humbug, such irrelevant considerations (to name only a few) have no role in cramping a player from optimising that Japanese WITP:AE first turn warp speed advantage.

Sure it is only a game with so much abstracted and simplified compared to the real world challenges which the professionals had to meet. Feel free to investigate alternatives, but please, don't try to be selective in "marshalling" real world "facts" to support such claims.

Alfred

PS. After posting I see that whilst i was composing Chicken of the Sea beat me on some of the points.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

I fail to see what's gamey about a Dec. 7. Mersing landing. (did it myself in my current PBEM) I say if the Japanese player is willing to run the risk, Singers air power, naval assets including force Z and swarms of subs considered, then why shouldn't he be allowed to do it? Okay, they didn't in real life, but is that even an argument?

WHY "they didn't do it in real life" is most definately an arguement. The British had been tracking the "Khota Baru/Singora" invasion convoy for a week before the landings. They couldn't "pull the trigger" because until Midnight of the 7th (Malaya Time), 6th (Hawaiian Time), they were headed towards Singora in Thailand. The Khota Baru group broke off in the early hours of turn one (Game Time).

To go farther South would have totally "tipped the hand" of Japanese intentions a day before they could possibly land---losing surprise and possibly triggering a British "spoiling attack" (as there was NO target South of Singora which was not Allied Territory). To use the artificial constraints of the game to make such an attack is totally GAMEY!

[Xxzard]

It's interesting, if one is playing a game about a historical subject, and one wishes to learn how to play, the best course of action is often to learn about the historical tactics used at the time. For example, when playing an age of sail game, you realize fairly quickly that there was a reason for line of battle tactics, because in many ways it works quite well. Why didn't the fleets at Jutland close and engage at night? Because they couldn't see a thing, just like it was historically. History is important, and even if tactics used then are considered obsolete now, you can bet they worked well then, because smart people thought them up. There were quite bright tacticians and strategists in the past, and sometimes their work does not need to be improved.

In the case of Malaya, the Japanese land close to their air cover, and Force Z usually bites it. You can land at Mersing, but in my book everything is already going pretty well there.

[Pratzen]

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Can we discusss the tactical situation facing the Allies and the Japanese if a large invasion hits mersing early.

This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign. And I've played countless pre-AE campaigns. For now I just play the Guadalcanal scenario. It's a brilliant scenario, but it does have limited replayability. So! I may be forced to resort to the unthinkable: becoming a JFB! Or give up the game entirely....... (Not sure which would be more heartbreaking......)

[Barb]

In WITP I faced Mersing invasion as Allies once... I was able to move closest units to Johore Bharu and hold it open untill ALL units from Malaya got through. On top of that I managed to torpedo Zuikaku or Shokaku (I do not remember which one it was) by Stringback and kill some transport ships. So in my eyes it wasnt so succesfull move by my enemy [:D]

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Can we discusss the tactical situation facing the Allies and the Japanese if a large invasion hits mersing early.

This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign.

Truly simple answer to a Japanese Player that tries something this gamey in a PBEM is to simply tell him you aren't going to continue to play with him..., AFTER he's spent 10-25 hours doing his first turn, and BEFORE you spend the 10-15 hours doing your first full turn (turn two). If the twit gets "dumped" often enough, maybe he'll learn that "history" happened for a reason..., and that "gamey" isn't acceptable behavior in a long-running game (except by previous agreement---if you BOTH want to play "fast and loose" with reality that's your choice).

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

First of all, as a Japanese player I wouldn't do this as a turn 1 move. Such an invasion would be observed and tracked and surprise could not have been achieved. The Commonwealth would have hit it with the kitchen sink. In my opinion it is gamey and I wouldn't want a game like that even as Japanese, but others will have different opinions and as long as they agree on such things there is no problem. Going for it later after you have sufficient control of the air and Force Z is neutralized is reasonable, but the Japanese player will often have better invasion options by then.

After it has been done to you, you have little choice but to form some strongpoints on the railroad lines that he will have to spend time and troops reducing.

Disagree , instead of landing North at 10PM they can land at Mersing in the morning... Sure they have 12 hours more notice but finding these at night would not be easy. Gamey is the Singapore or west coast landings.
What should be alowed though is some TF to join force Z . On the other hand Japan would have brought more BBs if that was the goal which is hard without an edit.

eg change house rule no new TF created to , unless it is a surface combat TF to join force Z and does not reach Kuching or further north.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Disagree , instead of landing North at 10PM they can land at Mersing in the morning... Sure they have 12 hours more notice but finding these at night would not be easy.

Dream on! The average speed of a Japanese Troop convoy was not that great. And it's 250+ miles by sea from Khota Baru to Mersing..., so they are going to be sailing down the Malayan coast throughout an entire day as well as at night. And the Brits had already been trailing this convoy day and night for most of a week. It's "gamey to the max".

[vlcz]

My favorite free initial turn is Mersing (the lions share of the forces) coupled with Singkawang and khota in Dec 7. At Dec 9 you have LRCAP over the landings.

Move an Air flotilla + Netties ASAP to Singkawang.

Risky , but  the month+ you earn to those divisions is critical can be very profitable

About the exploit/legitimate debate ..I´m totally sure  that in the event the real war had commenced otherwise many of us would name "cheese", "gamey" and "absurd" a surprise attack over pearl harbour[:D]

[wyrmmy]

The Brits were conducting active searches in SEA, the Americans were not at Pearl. I think a turn 2 invasion is a decent compromise.[8D]

[jeffs]

[/quote]

It's more in the realm of a Romulan cloaking device.

What....First the tooth fairy.[:(]
Then Santa Claus[&:]
now now Romulan cloaking device?[:@]

Just when I thought I could believe in something[&o]

Also, Mike Scholl,

Dream on..Rather polite answer I thought. Rather the idea that they (IJA) could mosey on down to Mersing overnight would imply
large amounts of halucigens...Or a guy who personally owns a cloaking device. I bet that would go for a pretty price on e-bay (personal cloaking device)

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign.

I can promise that I won't land at Mersing in any game where my opponent promises to evacuate nothing to Singapore, until the Malaya army is routed all the way to it by advancing Japanese. Any history-based complaints about the Mersing invasion in a game, where the Allied player evacuates the peninsula from Day 1, are automatically invalid.

On that note, landing on 7th is not a good move. I'd prefer to wait for a few days until Kota Bharu can be activated, and Japanese can provide some carrier cover.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

ORIGINAL: Ketza
Can we discusss the tactical situation facing the Allies and the Japanese if a large invasion hits mersing early.

This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign.

Truly simple answer to a Japanese Player that tries something this gamey in a PBEM is to simply tell him you aren't going to continue to play with him..., AFTER he's spent 10-25 hours doing his first turn, and BEFORE you spend the 10-15 hours doing your first full turn (turn two). If the twit gets "dumped" often enough, maybe he'll learn that "history" happened for a reason..., and that "gamey" isn't acceptable behavior in a long-running game (except by previous agreement---if you BOTH want to play "fast and loose" with reality that's your choice).

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here. [:)]

[Atilla60]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Pratzen




This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign.

Truly simple answer to a Japanese Player that tries something this gamey in a PBEM is to simply tell him you aren't going to continue to play with him..., AFTER he's spent 10-25 hours doing his first turn, and BEFORE you spend the 10-15 hours doing your first full turn (turn two). If the twit gets "dumped" often enough, maybe he'll learn that "history" happened for a reason..., and that "gamey" isn't acceptable behavior in a long-running game (except by previous agreement---if you BOTH want to play "fast and loose" with reality that's your choice).

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here. [:)]

+1
Nuff said.

[jeffs]

True....I have never had much problem as things were agreed beforehand...

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here. [:)]
[/quote]
+1
Nuff said.

[/quote]

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
(except by previous agreement---if you BOTH want to play "fast and loose" with reality that's your choice).

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here. [:)]

Isn't that exactly what I said? [8|]

[Marcus_Antonius]

Refusing to play the game because its not going to follow history does seem to be an extreme attitude.

I think more of you need to relax about this stuff. The Japanese had good reasons for not hitting Mersing first, and they had good reasons for cancelling the later landing at Mersing they had planned. And a player in the game has the exact same concerns, i.e. risking ships and men on defended beached beyond LBA.

You can't make a house rule for everything you don't like personally. Do that and you create more problems than you solve.

No all Allied player (in hindsight) is going to defend Malaya with the hope of success that the British had originally. So what is the point of hobbling the Japanese with having to follow the script exactly.

Personally I don't think early Mersing is the best Japanese move, but if somebody wants to try, its not that far fetched.

Play the game and enjoy the game. And get use to the fact that the Japanese subs are going to go after your merchant shipping and that the allies are probably going to be running early to save assets rather than stand and fight as they "should."

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

This exploit is but one of several reasons I can't bring myself to PBEM the full campaign.

I can promise that I won't land at Mersing in any game where my opponent promises to evacuate nothing to Singapore, until the Malaya army is routed all the way to it by advancing Japanese. Any history-based complaints about the Mersing invasion in a game, where the Allied player evacuates the peninsula from Day 1, are automatically invalid.

On that note, landing on 7th is not a good move. I'd prefer to wait for a few days until Kota Bharu can be activated, and Japanese can provide some carrier cover.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
(except by previous agreement---if you BOTH want to play "fast and loose" with reality that's your choice).

The even better solution would be to talk things over like two adults and reach an agreement on house rules BEFORE agreeing to a PBEM. It's amazing how many reasonable adults are hanging around here. [:)]

Isn't that exactly what I said? [8|]

Not quite what you said in the rest of your now incomplete quoted post that you edited out.