Research... as institutions!!!

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thiosk
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:36 am

Research... as institutions!!!

Post by thiosk »

SCIENCE!

We shall take our best and brightest...
and send them to the nearest black hole.
-Emperor Thiosk, Lord and Master of the Now-Extinct Neothiolytes

The above made-up quote illustrates my main problem with research in distant worlds. Black hole research is GROSSLY overpowered. Basically, if you get research stations up at black holes, you win the game. If you do not, you delay winning the game. If you do not do battle at said research installations to clear out opposing forces, you will actually have to shoot at ships that have some actual technology on them.
There are balance issues here. I will first describe what I feel DW does right with research, and make some suggestions for a rebalance on a later patch or expansion.

I am no game designer, so I’ll make some suggestions, intersperse some counter suggestions, and try to just get it all out there. Hopefully this fosters some discussion in the community about how research should work!

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Science research on Earth

Very seldom do leaders have anything to do with technological research. Sure, we could dump a bunch of money into a topic, a la crashing in DW, but WHY do you let your imperial leaders tell the scientists what to do? Bad move. You take scientists, you give them money, goals, lasers, and laboratory animals, then turn them to the wild and push them to send progress reports every other year. This is how science gets done, and it works pretty well.
Look at science research on Earth.

Southern California is a veritable research Mecca-- Cal tech, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and others... lots of money and lots of results in the physical sciences come out of there. Then consider the east coast-- you have MIT and Harvard in basically the same place, another important location.
The average density of high-impact scientific research is lower the further from those locations you go. Its Boston and Los Angeles-- these are places you send your scientists. You do NOT send them to live and work permanently in orbit around extremely dangerous black holes.

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What works great for DW currently

I love the general research system currently. I really want to get that across. I think it could benefit from a little more flare... maybe a little more uniqueness between the races (but it took GalCiv 2 six years or so to get separate tech trees for each race?), but I don't have to worry about what order I’m getting tech in... I don't have to worry about balancing the need for biological research with industrial with weapons.
Everything pretty much just flows out as long as I give my scientists something to work with.
Unfortunately, what scientists need to work with are black holes, and I feel the focus on this anomaly research is just a little too heavy.

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The black hole problem

Research in DW is certainly simple. But the racial attributes are essentially useless, as they are all totally overshadowed by a couple installations in orbit around black holes. Novae or neutron stars, sure they work in a pinch, but you can ignore them completely if you get a black hole with two expanded-research stations.
Seriously, that +600% raw is that powerful.
Black hole research allows you to focus all research efforts in one place while excluding everything else entirely. I do not think this is the way it is supposed to be.
My solution in the current build is generally to do slow research, but then I'll get the black hole, and then I'll be running at normal speed, and while the AI does build stations at black holes, I haven’t noticed it being as contested as it probably should be, given the gross overpoweredness.

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Proposed Changes

1. Planet-focused research structure.

Research will primarily occur at planets. Cutting edge science requires the presence of a starport (or research starbase)—you need lots of raw materials coming in to do science, and a way to comfortably transfer scientists to posh orbital recreation sites for conferences. So far nothing has changed from the current setting—spaceports put out a modest amount of research.

To change this, make population and development important. The numbers in the research overview are a good way to look at this—as the population increases, the base value in each area will likewise increase; then that value is multiplied by the development value.
A planet with 10 billion people and 80% development would take its research value and multiply by 0.8. A planet with ruins (140% development, for instance) and 1 billion people would take its smaller base value but multiply by 1.4.

Imagine now an empire with one major, highly-developed planet, and 10 small colonies. Highest colonial population is 450 million. The lionshare of research in that empire would be happening at the homeworld. This makes sense. It takes a long time for a colony to build its own MITs.

2. Galactic anomalies are supplemental, and area-focused.
Unless I’m omitting something, there are four main classes of anomalies that influence research--Black holes (big boys), novas, neutron stars, ruins (little guys)-- each multiply all types of research by a certain base fraction.
First, wipe out the base percentages, and specialize the areas:

Energy – Neutron Hole
Weapons - Nova
Industrial - Ruins
High tech - Neutron Star
(I would propose keeping ruins as scenic locations and colony development boosters (bringing with them their own intrinsic research boosts due to the development boost) and bringing in another anomaly.)

Rather than generating raw research points, anomaly bases should increase research generated by colonies by a raw percentage. For example, 25% with basic labs, and increasing amounts as you improve the facility.

3. One base per anomaly
Hey look! Three black holes! Lets put three bases around one of them so we only have to protect one location.

Ummmm, no. This is not allowed. One base provides 100% of the possible allowed benefit. Two bases provide half the possible allowed benefit each. This makes every anomaly a sought-after place. Backup research institutions are buildable but don’t do anything until one gets all blow’d up.

4. Diminishing Returns

There must be a way for a smaller empire to compete with a larger empire. This could be done by carefully looking at racial research bonuses, dumb races fill up their colonies with people quickly to generate some research, while smart races tend to just generate more research points and are then unstoppable when they have a big enough base.
On the other hand, once the empire gets large enough, theres the potential for just too much research generation, so I could imagine a control on this by ordering the planets by research output, and putting arbitrary diminishing returns on each. #1 planet has full power, 99% power for number 2, and go down the list where each additional planet lends less and less to the research.

Likewise, anomaly research would also have a diminishing return of some kind… you get full benefit from the first anomaly, but by the fifth anomaly you are just building bases to keep other empires away.

5. Sharing anomaly sites

I failed kindergarten, because I was attempting to hoard cookies and construction paper as part of my attempt to usurp the tyrannical Mrs. Klutzelfeld.
I don’ t like sharing research sites with anyone, even allies. I would make this suggestion. If one empire runs an anomaly, its base generates full power research. If two empires are there, each base runs at 80% efficiency. By the time five empires are there, you are running at 20% efficiency—seriously pissing off all five involved parties. “(-27: your research installations are introducing noise into our measurements!)
I imagine war over anomalies, and I likewise imagine anomaly trading as an important diplomatic factor—we will do the weapon research at the nova while you do the energy research at the neutron star… then we’ll set up a research treaty to trade out some of those points.

6. Research is expensive

There really isn’t enough cost associated with research. Research stations should be enormously expensive to maintain, and require huge shipments of certain strategic goods—especially things like gold, carbon fibre, polymer, and dilithium crystals; if the strategic resources is needed for a certain item, like “nekros stone for weapons” then the weapon research installation would require enormous nekros stone shipments.
I imagine the entire output of several solar systems would be required for a race to deserve the x600% output of a black hole, in the current build. If the bonus is decreased, you’d need less stuff, but research is extremely valuable and should require the resources and maintenance costs.

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Conclusion
So, in closing, what I’m talking about here is ways to keep research simple, but make it a little richer. No more get-one-black-hole-and-forget-about-it strategy; high-pop, developed worlds are the most important factor; anomalies are likewise extremely valuable and targeted bonuses that supplement colonial research rather than running the research of the empire.

There’s a couple positive things that would come from this. Let’s say you kept finding an anomaly that improved weapon research, but not industrial. Well, that would tend to lead to a game strategy where you really focus on the weapons of a spacecraft rather than its size. By having generalized research, you don’t have this kind of random richness; just plunk 4 of each research lab in a starbase and stick it around black holes?

Boring.

Cheers!
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Wade1000
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Location: California, USA

RE: Research... as institutions!!!

Post by Wade1000 »

-Some of the various bonuses in the game do seem extreme.
2. Galactic anomalies are supplemental, and area-focused.
Unless I’m omitting something, there are four main classes of anomalies that influence research--Black holes (big boys), novas, neutron stars, ruins (little guys)-- each multiply all types of research by a certain base fraction.
First, wipe out the base percentages, and specialize the areas:

Energy – Neutron Hole
Weapons - Nova
Industrial - Ruins
High tech - Neutron Star
-I disagree. I like that each stellar body type multiplies all types of research. I do not want each to be specialized. That design would seem arbitrary and nonsensical.

-Good ideas on the most part.
Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.
forsaken1111
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:30 am

RE: Research... as institutions!!!

Post by forsaken1111 »

Perhaps each stellar phenomenon could have one type it is better for. For example a Neutron Star could give 100% of its normal boost to high tech research, 80% for energy or weapons research, and only 50% of its normal boost for industrial.

Or perhaps this could be randomized per phenomenon. The neutron star could have "The presence of easily accessible neutronium pockets increases industrial research by 300%"
Fishman
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:56 pm

RE: Research... as institutions!!!

Post by Fishman »

ORIGINAL: thiosk

You do NOT send them to live and work permanently in orbit around extremely dangerous black holes.
Black holes aren't really any more dangerous than any other location in space. In fact, they're pretty safe. Black holes don't experience stellar outbursts or do anything particularly unpredictable. We do, however, seem to send researchers to live in Antarctica, which is rather unpleasant and dangerous, and people die there, so clearly, there is precedent for research conducted in nasty places.
Research in DW is certainly simple. But the racial attributes are essentially useless, as they are all totally overshadowed by a couple installations in orbit around black holes. Novae or neutron stars, sure they work in a pinch, but you can ignore them completely if you get a black hole with two expanded-research stations.
Seriously, that +600% raw is that powerful.
Well, +600% is +600%. You take it when you can get it, and it overshadows the use of any lesser bonus, because why would you want a lesser bonus when you can have a greater one? However, the bonus is really icing. Research bases are pretty cheap. It's not going to break the bank to construct another 6 stations. Especially since by default, they're part of the space ports you're going to be building anyway. You DID plan on building space ports anyway, right? We strip labs from spaceports because we don't need them with black holes, but if we didn't have a black hole ANYWHERE nearby, we'd be using them on spaceports.

And Racial search bonuses are not being overshadowed by black holes, they're simply useless because they are applied to point generation, then capped to death, rather than being applied AFTER point generation, like with the ruin sites. If they were applied AFTER the raw points were generated and sawed off, +40% research would really mean +40% research. What it means NOW is that you will generate 40% more research, which is all useless because it will be over cap anyway.
Black hole research allows you to focus all research efforts in one place while excluding everything else entirely. I do not think this is the way it is supposed to be.
My solution in the current build is generally to do slow research, but then I'll get the black hole, and then I'll be running at normal speed, and while the AI does build stations at black holes, I haven’t noticed it being as contested as it probably should be, given the gross overpoweredness.
The lack of contestation is not necessarily true. Location matters: A black hole in the middle of your empire is unlikely to be contested, but if the black hole is in neutral space, it will be festooned in research stations, and if a war breaks out, fighting will be pretty much constant. I had a game where the only really accessible black holes were all in the border regions, and there was pretty much non-stop fighting there because everyone hates me. My research base was rebuilt as a Resort-Research-Base, and it had to be ARMED TO THE TEETH to survive. Every few minutes I'd get a popup that 3 or 4 opposing AI task forces were converging on my base, and there was pretty much an ongoing battle 5-way battle royale as people would build bases, those bases would be slagged by their enemies, and they would build them back. It was awesome. That ALONE should have been worth scenery points! I know it was worth scenery for ME! And hell, just the FIGHTING ALONE should have been research worthy, realistically: You have ring-side seats to a non-stop warzone, where people actually TEST WEAPONS ON EACH OTHER FOR REAL. How is that not an AWESOME research site?
3. One base per anomaly
Hey look! Three black holes! Lets put three bases around one of them so we only have to protect one location.

Ummmm, no. This is not allowed. One base provides 100% of the possible allowed benefit.
I'm unclear what the purpose of this is, since ONE research base is ALREADY sufficient to provide all the research you will ever need in your entire life. If only one base is allowed, it will just be a rather large base.
ORIGINAL: thiosk

4. Diminishing Returns

There must be a way for a smaller empire to compete with a larger empire. This could be done by carefully looking at racial research bonuses, dumb races fill up their colonies with people quickly to generate some research, while smart races tend to just generate more research points and are then unstoppable when they have a big enough base.
There is already a diminishing returns in place. Once you hit 1000 research capacity, the rate at which it grows slows down to a snail's pace.
I failed kindergarten, because I was attempting to hoard cookies and construction paper as part of my attempt to usurp the tyrannical Mrs. Klutzelfeld.
I don’ t like sharing research sites with anyone, even allies. I would make this suggestion. If one empire runs an anomaly, its base generates full power research. If two empires are there, each base runs at 80% efficiency.
This is silly and makes no logical sense. Research in Antarctica is not hampered because more than one country operates a research installation there. If the view is that anomalies assist research by being interesting to observe, it makes sense that establishing multiple observatories observing the same anomaly will not help YOU any, but others who are not working with you can also independently gather their own data for their own use without having any real effect on you. If anything, scientists being scientists, having multiple independent parties observing a place would actually improve everyone's research, possibly not in a way you approve of.
I imagine war over anomalies, and I likewise imagine anomaly trading as an important diplomatic factor—we will do the weapon research at the nova while you do the energy research at the neutron star… then we’ll set up a research treaty to trade out some of those points.
Wars over anomalies already happen. If an anomaly is in the right place and the occupants are hostile, it will be a constant warzone. The AI loves black holes as much as the player does.
There really isn’t enough cost associated with research. Research stations should be enormously expensive to maintain, and require huge shipments of certain strategic goods—especially things like gold, carbon fibre, polymer, and dilithium crystals; if the strategic resources is needed for a certain item, like “nekros stone for weapons” then the weapon research installation would require enormous nekros stone shipments.
Research installations eating resources is a good idea, given that resource gluts tend to set in with many strategic resources.
Astorax
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:50 pm

RE: Research... as institutions!!!

Post by Astorax »

"...Black holes aren't really any more dangerous than any other location in space. In fact, they're pretty safe. Black holes don't experience stellar outbursts or do anything particularly unpredictable."

Except for perhaps material in the accretion disk decaying and they getting ejected at highspeeds (Bi-polar mass ejection) and the matter of high-energy x-rays being produced. Heh.
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Malevolence
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RE: Research... as institutions!!!

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: thiosk
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Science research on Earth

Very seldom do leaders have anything to do with technological research. Sure, we could dump a bunch of money into a topic, a la crashing in DW, but WHY do you let your imperial leaders tell the scientists what to do? Bad move. You take scientists, you give them money, goals, lasers, and laboratory animals, then turn them to the wild and push them to send progress reports every other year. This is how science gets done, and it works pretty well.
Look at science research on Earth.

Southern California is a veritable research Mecca-- Cal tech, Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and others... lots of money and lots of results in the physical sciences come out of there. Then consider the east coast-- you have MIT and Harvard in basically the same place, another important location.
The average density of high-impact scientific research is lower the further from those locations you go. Its Boston and Los Angeles-- these are places you send your scientists. You do NOT send them to live and work permanently in orbit around extremely dangerous black holes.

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Respectfully, this isn't the whole story. Governments and industry basically determine what applied scientific research is done. Basic research is mostly driven by scientists' curiosity and/or interests in a question, but applied research is designed to solve practical problems. While theorists can largely live from their educational salaries as professors and pursue their interests, serious projects require big money grants from government and industry. Who gets those limited $? Well that is how government and industry prioritizes research. They can also make research essentially taboo, like cloning or stem cells. Somebody pays for CERN's Large Hadron Collider and it isn't the researchers. There is also the atomic bomb example-- theories published in the 1930's and practical weapons based on huge government projects and engineering.

My experiences with DW research is that advances come too quickly and don't allow me to integrate them into my imperial strategy and plans. They simply happen often and I adapt. There are some contributing factors...

(1) We can't order the research by priority, so everything is moving at about the same rate--unless we surge it. I have found, however, that I can make so much cash that surging costs become easy from about mid-game until the eventual galactic meltdown... either that or my economy spirals out of control during the early phase of the game and I can't construct or upgrade anything anyway. Bottom line is that we are upgrading ships/bases too often. Maybe you don't notice this if you are running on automated upgrades.

(2) We don't have any idea when an advance might be complete in terms of time. That 47K number is meaningless to me in terms of my decision making. Like every other tyrant, I need to plan in terms of time. If my briefing slave tried to pony up that information to me, I would cut off his head as an example to his replacement.

(3) "Secret" weapons of mass destruction are easy to find and are always there. I like the in-game story, but it is always the same, always seems available, and immediately becomes the "I win" button when those super weapons are discovered. Make them more of an Easter egg.

(4) Size of ships/bases tied to higher technology levels creates my dependence on rapid research advances. Based on the current setup, we can't build bigger ships with lower technology weapons in the early phase of the game... as if there were no battleships around in WWI. You can balance this issue with a sigmoid curved maintenance cost. The opposite should be true... we should be able to fit greater firepower into smaller hulls due to miniaturization as technology advances reducing the requirement for large super-ships (but still allowing their construction).

I'm out of steam... you get the idea.
Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
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