What races are you playing?

[Xenoform21]

When I first purchased the game, I was enamoured with the technological prowess of the Quameno, combined with a Techocratic government. Problem was, getting off the ground economy-wise was too slow and I would be quickly overpowered by faster expanding empires.

Right now I'm enjoying the Tribble like reproductive advantages of the Atuuks. Sure, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, but my economy will be 100K + after an hour of gameplay, and they seem to get along well enough with other races.

What races are you currently playing with?

[BigWolfChris]

Human,
But that's because I've always player my own Custom Empire in 4x games which are biological offshots of the human race
Though I have on occasion used other races in games if there appearance is close enough

Hopefully, we'll be able to fully create brand new races ourselves in the future

[Xenoform21]

We already can, see the modding guide on the downloads screen.

[BigWolfChris]

But, you can only replace a current race, which I would prefer not to, tbh

[Cindar]

The strongest race to start out with, IMO, is the Dhayut. Here are my reasons:

First off, the bonus ability doesn't mean all that much except at the beginning. This is because its so easy to just find an independent colony and gain another races bonus. So, while -50% war weariness isn't the best, its not all that hurtful. I would rather have +research/happiness/income, but I'll probably get those soon anyway.

Stat wise, high aggression = high troop power. Reckless/unfriendly/unreliable only really applies to the AI players. High intelligence = high research and higher troop power.

Then we come to their true power: VelocityDrive ST3 tech. 60k hyperdrive is ridiculously useful.

Scout anywhere in the universe, picking up everything. Find independent colonies faster, get higher population, higher income, and more race bonuses. Find more scrapyards, get powerful ships or (IMO best solution) scrap them for huge research bonuses which will put you far ahead of any of the races that actually get research bonuses. Find planets that give huge empire-wide bonuses. This makes up for any place that the Dhayut may have been lacking. From the beginning of the game, the entire galaxy is in your reach.

Have a defensive fleet that can react near instantly to any attack on your worlds. Its a huge PITA when you have to manually refit your fleet with new hyperdrives every year since it always moves at the speed of your slowest craft. Velocity Drive takes all that pain away. I don't even have an active fleet usually, when under attack I just go to military menu -> select all -> jump to sector and defend. Boom, 10 seconds later the enemies are outnumbered 10:1. A minute later my ships are back to patrol. You can really expand throughout the stars since your reaction time is so fast, where other races would have to contain themselves to a section of the galaxy.

[Xenoform21]

What kind of galactic family do you usually play with Cindar? Because from what i've seen again and again is that nobody likes the Dhayut very much. At least in the games that i've played. Other then the insects, which don't really like to be friendly or reliable.

Do you find you have economic woes because of this?

[Fishman]

I have to agree that the Dhayut are my favorite. Plus, they remind me of the Ur-Quan. Given that the Dhayut have quite possibly the worst reproduction rate in the game, you will most likely end up ruling a slave empire of non-Dhayut.

However, one drawback of the Dhayut is that no one likes you. Most independent colonies you discover are going to be "very unlikely", and so you will have to invade them, which just goes and exacerbates the problem of no one liking you. Once you have enough thralls, though, you can use them to do your conversions. -50% war weariness combines with Military Dictatorship to produce "basically no war weariness", so you will never get tired of wars.

However, the Dhayut have a hidden research penalty: Any research in the Hyperdrive field is a complete and utter waste, as you already have the best drive in the game, and researching any of the lesser drives provides absolutely zero benefit, as they are useless. Since you do not control the distribution of research points, this particular field will always function as a drain on your research output. Other races with top-tech as starters share this penalty, but not quite to the same extreme, as there usually remains some benefit in the field: The Novacore isn't the BEST reactor, although it is the most efficient, the Sluken still need maneuvering thrusters, the Haakonish still need other types of storage, etc.

All the research-oriented races are pretty much suck, though, because of how the research system works and how research bonii are applied: Instead of functioning like the Research Ruins, which apply their bonus after the cap, the research bonus is applied to point generation, meaning all it does is cause you to hit cap faster. And since you hit that cap with ONE BASE, that is of no help at all! However, some of them do have rather strong starting techs.

[Cindar]

Research of hyperdrive being worthless isn't really a minus. You can't really say having weaker shields or weaker reactors then the highest in the tech tree is an advantage, can you? So why is having a stronger hyperdrive then anything else a disadvantage? Besides, with all the old ships I have lying around to sell for research, my tech is generally worth so much that I can buy out entire empires as I am 1-3 steps ahead of the galaxy in every tree. Also, exploration is an awesome diplomacy tool sometimes. I've had instances where my galaxy map was worth millions[:D].

Personally, I like to play with the Democracy or Way of Ancients government. -War Weariness raises your colonies happiness a little during long wars. Why not just take a government that gives +approval that works 24/7 (high approval in non wartime means you raise tax rate = more money), along with giving you population growth (= more money), reduced corruption (= more money), and increased colony income (= you get the point). It also cuts off about half of your diplomacy problem with the nicer races. As long as you start off with a few good tech trades, stay out of their systems, and expand into a good trade empire, you can ally with almost anyone. I've gotten into stable long term mutual defense pacts with races that normally hate Dhayut even on the second most aggressive galaxy setting (haven't tried the highest setting yet).

I wouldn't say most independent colonies hate you. Yes, a lot do, but not so much that it should give you problems. It's possible that also is affected by the government type though, maybe a Military Dictatorship turns off a few of the races even as independent colonies?

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Research of hyperdrive being worthless isn't really a minus. You can't really say having weaker shields or weaker reactors then the highest in the tech tree is an advantage, can you? So why is having a stronger hyperdrive then anything else a disadvantage?

Because unlike when you acquire the drive by trade, it does not give you all the lower-tech drives. Therefore, when you perform research, you can't manually allocate this research, so research is sucked up by useless hyperdrive research you don't need. This amounts to a research drag weight penalty imposed on the Dhayuts at all times, because any research points sucked in by hyperdrive research is wasted.

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Personally, I like to play with the Democracy or Way of Ancients government. -War Weariness raises your colonies happiness a little during long wars.

War Weariness is uncounterable on smaller colonies because there is no development factor to offset the unhappiness, nor taxes to cut. This makes you completely unable to colonize because every new colony you plop immediately revolts. Thus, you need to get to -100% war weariness or better to stop this.

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Why not just take a government that gives +approval that works 24/7 (high approval in non wartime means you raise tax rate = more money), along with giving you population growth (= more money), reduced corruption (= more money), and increased colony income (= you get the point).

Because in the grim future of Hello Kitty, there is only war.

ORIGINAL: Cindar

It also cuts off about half of your diplomacy problem with the nicer races. As long as you start off with a few good tech trades, stay out of their systems, and expand into a good trade empire, you can ally with almost anyone. I've gotten into stable long term mutual defense pacts with races that normally hate Dhayut even on the second most aggressive galaxy setting (haven't tried the highest setting yet).

Actually, the problem is that they really, really, really hate my merchant fleet. Maybe if that bug is ever fixed, diplomacy will become practical, but since you can't tell your merchant fleet to stay out of their space, they will bitch constantly for them to removed.

ORIGINAL: Cindar

I wouldn't say most independent colonies hate you. Yes, a lot do, but not so much that it should give you problems.

Well, they've never heard of Space Marines, so no, it doesn't really give me problems.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Because unlike when you acquire the drive by trade, it does not give you all the lower-tech drives. Therefore, when you perform research, you can't manually allocate this research, so research is sucked up by useless hyperdrive research you don't need. This amounts to a research drag weight penalty imposed on the Dhayuts at all times, because any research points sucked in by hyperdrive research is wasted.

But, if you were another race, those research points were just going to go into Hyperdrive anyway. Which you already have the best of. It doesn't slow your other research down at all. Nothing is lost. Its like if I said I was going to give you 100 dollars each month for the year, then next year I said I was giving you 1300 the first month. Would you say that you are at a disadvantage because you weren't getting money for the rest of the next year? Of course not, you got it ahead of time.

ORIGINAL: Fishman
War Weariness is uncounterable on smaller colonies because there is no development factor to offset the unhappiness, nor taxes to cut. This makes you completely unable to colonize because every new colony you plop immediately revolts. Thus, you need to get to -100% war weariness or better to stop this.

You can't get -100% war weariness. -50% + -50% != -100%, its 75%. You always experience war weariness.

Frankly, I just ignore the revolting colonies. They aren't really in danger of seceding. Give it a month, the population sorts itself out just fine. Its not like you were going to be earning big bucks on that small population in the first month of taxation. Race reputation also works to counter act it, I'm not entirely sure where approval fits into the equation since it isn't listed but it may help at well.

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: Cindar
Why not just take a government that gives +approval that works 24/7 (high approval in non wartime means you raise tax rate = more money), along with giving you population growth (= more money), reduced corruption (= more money), and increased colony income (= you get the point).

Because in the grim future of Hello Kitty, there is only war.

Of course, its not like war costs money or anything [:D]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Actually, the problem is that they really, really, really hate my merchant fleet. Maybe if that bug is ever fixed, diplomacy will become practical, but since you can't tell your merchant fleet to stay out of their space, they will bitch constantly for them to removed.

The - from being in their territory is capped, I'm pretty sure. You can easily stack enough +'s from direct diplomatic trade, trading valuable resources, general trade, good rep, all that nice stuff. I have a 5-way alliance that is fairly stable in a galaxy with unstable aggression settings right now, consisting of Dhaygut (me), Securan, Shandar, Sluken, and Teekan. Well, the Sluken still hate the Teekan and Securan, but they hate the rest of the galaxy quite a bit more at the moment, so that keeps them occupied

It is a PITA though.

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: Cindar

I wouldn't say most independent colonies hate you. Yes, a lot do, but not so much that it should give you problems.

Well, they've never heard of Space Marines, so no, it doesn't really give me problems.

[:D]

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Cindar
But, if you were another race, those research points were just going to go into Hyperdrive anyway. Which you already have the best of. It doesn't slow your other research down at all. Nothing is lost.

If you were another race, you would have a different advantage, and those research points would not be getting wasted. Those races would have other advantages, and would not be taking a hidden research penalty because a fraction of their points are always being flushed down the terlet.

Its like if I said I was going to give you 100 dollars each month for the year, then next year I said I was giving you 1300 the first month. Would you say that you are at a disadvantage because you weren't getting money for the rest of the next year? Of course not, you got it ahead of time.

It's more complicated than your analogy suggests. Take as a simplistic example, several races, and just to keep it simple, 4 research fields. If one of the race's advantages is that they receive the top item in one of those research fields, assuming research is evenly distributed, they now have a 25% research penalty because a quarter of their research will be spent on a field that they are actually already maxed out on, and will produce remedial discoveries that serve no purpose. Races which received OTHER advantages would not carry this hidden research waste.

You can't get -100% war weariness. -50% + -50% != -100%, its 75%. You always experience war weariness.

Your math is assuming that the multipliers are multiplicative rather than additive. Empirical results suggest that when you have a combination of modifiers that gives you -100% or better, the "War Weariness" value is always -0. So either the war weariness value is always relatively small and multiplicative modifiers are capable of suppressing it into neglibility, or the multipliers accumulate additively.

Frankly, I just ignore the revolting colonies. They aren't really in danger of seceding.

Let's hope so. I'm paranoid about these things, though, so...

Of course, its not like war costs money or anything [:D]

War is good for business! Every time an armed merchant cruiser finally goes down in battle, they get to buy a new one. This gives me spaceport profits. Meanwhile, the enemy is losing warships and even spaceports to this. I regularly see enraged heavy freighters mow down an entire attacking squadron and the spaceport. Additionally, attrition helps keep my merchant fleet up to date, as the older, weaker craft are killed off.

The - from being in their territory is capped, I'm pretty sure.

I've seen it in the negative-hundreds. I don't think it's capped, other than by the fact that the modifier ceases when they declare war on you.

You can easily stack enough +'s from direct diplomatic trade, trading valuable resources, general trade, good rep, all that nice stuff.

Sure, buying out their colonies to expel them from your sphere helps. I usually have money to throw around, as my miserly tendencies and lack of a fleet really saves a lot of cash. On the other hand, then I eventually splurge on building my own Death Star. Or would, if the game didn't usually crash and corrupt around that point.

I have a 5-way alliance that is fairly stable in a galaxy with unstable aggression settings right now, consisting of Dhaygut (me), Securan, Shandar, Sluken, and Teekan. Well, the Sluken still hate the Teekan and Securan, but they hate the rest of the galaxy quite a bit more at the moment, so that keeps them occupied

I try to avoid alliances with AIs. AIs never offer any useful help, can't coordinate for crap, and tend to embroil themselves in meaningless wars that they expect you to participate in. Also, I like to reserve the option of slagging them should they prove intractable in negotiation, like refusing to put the item I want on the table.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
It's more complicated than your analogy suggests. Take as a simplistic example, several races, and just to keep it simple, 4 research fields. If one of the race's advantages is that they receive the top item in one of those research fields, assuming research is evenly distributed, they now have a 25% research penalty because a quarter of their research will be spent on a field that they are actually already maxed out on, and will produce remedial discoveries that serve no purpose. Races which received OTHER advantages would not carry this hidden research waste.

But then you could say any other advantage incurs waste, since you can obtain their advantage by getting them in your empire (other then the different governments). Its just silly to say that getting something earlier is somehow a bad thing.

ORIGINAL: FishmanYour math is assuming that the multipliers are multiplicative rather than additive. Empirical results suggest that when you have a combination of modifiers that gives you -100% or better, the "War Weariness" value is always -0. So either the war weariness value is always relatively small and multiplicative modifiers are capable of suppressing it into neglibility, or the multipliers accumulate additively.

Hmm, I switched over to military dictatorship and I still saw a war weariness penalty.

Of course, its not like war costs money or anything [:D]

War is good for business! Every time an armed merchant cruiser finally goes down in battle, they get to buy a new one. This gives me spaceport profits.

Are you sure about this? I don't believe you profit at all from civilian space craft, and you DO pay to maintain them according to the empire summary screen. Or maybe the listed cost to maintain the civilian craft is just superfluous information.

The - from being in their territory is capped, I'm pretty sure.

I've seen it in the negative-hundreds. I don't think it's capped, other than by the fact that the modifier ceases when they declare war on you.

Are you sure you weren't seeing a different modifier, one for military craft? I suppose its possible that armed civilians are considered military craft. I've seen modifiers for intruding militaries well over a hundred as well, but not merchant modifiers. Its possible that my empire simply never actually trades that much with other colonies, though.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Your math is assuming that the multipliers are multiplicative rather than additive. Empirical results suggest that when you have a combination of modifiers that gives you -100% or better, the "War Weariness" value is always -0. So either the war weariness value is always relatively small and multiplicative modifiers are capable of suppressing it into neglibility, or the multipliers accumulate additively.

Hmm, I switched over to military dictatorship and I still saw a war weariness penalty.

Went back and did a bit more thorough of a test. I am 95% sure it stacks multiplicatively. With a military dictatorship (-50% war weariness) and maxed war weariness, I have -7 happiness to all colonies. With a democracy, I have -9/10 happiness to all colonies. So really, I don't feel any extra war weariness protection outside of a race bonus is all that important. Especially since the instant a war ends it drops back to zero, which isn't all that realistic since you can start another war the next day and your population is totally OK with it.

Another interesting fact I discovered: The rate at which war weariness increases (but not the effect of war weariness, thats controlled by -war weariness modifiers) appears to be based either on the strength of your enemies or the number of them.

[Fishman]

I know when I have better than -100%, I see only -0 War Weariness. Are you sure the value you're seeing is not a -1, possibly created by rounding error?

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I know when I have better than -100%, I see only -0 War Weariness. Are you sure the value you're seeing is not a -1, possibly created by rounding error?

Better then -100%? I have -100% exactly (-50% race -50% military dictatorship), at which point my colonies all max out at -7 happiness due to war weariness. Without the bonus from military dictatorship, I have -9/10 happiness. If over 100% takes war weariness entirely away I'm guessing its probably a bug, since otherwise it seems to stack multiplicatively.

[Bloodly]

The Securans. Part of it is simply the look. They're in an odd position due to their semi-unique government. Yes, Utopian Paradise grants massive war weariness, but it balances out in that you've got massive approval to offset it, and they grow like rabbits all the while(Quicker to get colonies started and profiting).

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Are you sure about this? I don't believe you profit at all from civilian space craft, and you DO pay to maintain them according to the empire summary screen.

You get paid for Spaceport Construction of civilian craft, a fact which is explicitly stated and acknowledged multiple times elsewhere in the forums. And while money *IS* paid to maintain civilian spacecraft, it is paid by PRIVATE (not you), not by STATE (you). Since there is no way to actually GET at this money, as long as they are not being bankrupted to the point where they cannot pay their taxes, you do not care.

[lostsm]

humans! all other races must die or kneEL! how can anyone play rat-race or cat-race or fuzzy-face race is beyond me, oh and dont me going on the pretend to be human blueskin race, what a bunch of wannabes. it sounds aweful but it's 100% white power lol. where is the pride people!!!!

[OberonDark]

ORIGINAL: lostsm

humans! all other races must die or kneEL! how can anyone play rat-race or cat-race or fuzzy-face race is beyond me, oh and dont me going on the pretend to be human blueskin race, what a bunch of wannabes. it sounds aweful but it's 100% white power lol. where is the pride people!!!!

I like playing as the racist Galactic Empire sometimes. (Palpatine was entirely pro-human).