Soviet WW2 Air Production

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Panama
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Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

Anyone know of good sources for Soviet WW2 air production. Several usually works best. Yearly/monthly numbers, types, factory locatons. Links, book titles, pamplets, runes scrawled on ancient leather, anything. Thanks.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Anyone know of good sources for Soviet WW2 air production. Several usually works best. Yearly/monthly numbers, types, factory locatons. Links, book titles, pamplets, runes scrawled on ancient leather, anything. Thanks.

Glantz has some general data. I've got two of his books out at the moment. Let me know if you want it. There's a separate appendix, which I don't have, that would probably have more.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

If you have some data that you can emial me that would be great. told2 at cox dot net.

I'm trying to get an accurate fix on Soviet air production and use that for an update of the east front. I have everything including starting air available but the aircraft production side of things is horribly lacking. Thanks for anything you can send my way.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

If you have some data that you can emial me that would be great. told2 at cox dot net.

I'm trying to get an accurate fix on Soviet air production and use that for an update of the east front. I have everything including starting air available but the aircraft production side of things is horribly lacking. Thanks for anything you can send my way.

Done. I found a few passages that should be of some use, although they're hardly definitive.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Panama

If you have some data that you can emial me that would be great. told2 at cox dot net.

I'm trying to get an accurate fix on Soviet air production and use that for an update of the east front. I have everything including starting air available but the aircraft production side of things is horribly lacking. Thanks for anything you can send my way.

Done. I found a few passages that should be of some use, although they're hardly definitive.

Actually, your e-mail address is giving me grief for whatever reason. Here it all is, out there for everyone to see.

This is from Colossus Reborn, p.314:

"...On 20 August [1941]...the VVS began receiving limited a limited number of new model Il-2, Pe-2, and IaK-1 aircraft..."

p.315:

"...aircraft production increased from 693 aircraft in December 1941 to 976 in January 1942, 822 in February, 1532 in March, and 1432 in April, increasing the total number of aircraft assigned to support the Red Army's field forces from 2495 in December 1941 to 3164 in May 1942. By this time, new model aircraft, including LaGG-3, IaK-1, IaK-76, Tu-2, and IaK-9 aircraft made up 50% of the strength of VVS front-line forces..."

p.317:

"...After arriving in driblets during late 1941, the flow of [Lend-lease] aircraft to the Soviet Union reached significant proportions in late 1942 and 1943...Douglas transports, Boeing B-25 bombers, A-20 Boston bombers, and R40-E [sic] Kittyhawk and P-39 Airacobra fighters. Ultimately, the roughly 14,000 aircraft shipped to the Soviet Union under the Lend-Lease program amounted to approximately 11 percent of the roughly 100,000 aircraft the Soviet Union produced during the war..."

p.318:

"...the monthly average production of new model aircraft rose form 2100 in 1942 to 2900 in 1943, permitting the VVS to replace most older-model aircraft. By this time it equipped most of its fighter regiments with several variations of the new La-5fn and IaK-9 fighters, all of its air assault regiments with the Il-2 Sturmovik (primarily the two-seated version), and all of its bomber regiments except the night bomber varieties with Pe-2 bombers. As a result, the only aviation regiments still largely with obsolete aircraft in mid-July were night bomber aviation regiments..."

Finally, and as a guide to what you should wind up with.

pp 318-319:

"...although the Luftwaffe managed to achieve air dominance over the VVS during the first few days of the war and maintained air superiority throughout most of the first 18 months of war, slowly but inexorably it lost its superiority by November 1942 and faced a dominant VVS in the summer of 1943..."
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Panama
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

Great thanks. [8D]

That's one book I wish I had.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Great thanks. [8D]

That's one book I wish I had.

Maybe your local library can do an inter-library loan. It's a pain -- but it will get you the book.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

One thing I didn't know is that the I-16 was not only used into 1943 but that some Soviet pilots prefered it because it could out fly the ME109 horizontally. The 109 had the vertical advantage.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by TPOO »

The book "Russian Aviation and Air Power in the 2oth Century" by Robin Higham has some specific data on production during the war including yearly production for most aircraft as well as factory locations where they were built. I used a lot of this data for updating Soviet aircraft production in the Directive 21 scenario. PM me a vaild email address and I will send you the data.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Curtis Lemay »

One source I relied upon for "Soviet Union 1941" was "World War II A Statistical Survey" by John Ellis. There's an entire chapter on production filled with tables of all sorts. For example, Table 92 is attached, showing Annual Allied and Axis Aircraft Production. There are also tables showing the same broken down by plane type.

Also, I used "Aircraft of World War II" by Chris Chant. It had one page summaries of 300 aircraft. They usually had production periods and total production figures for each. For example, it gave total production of 11,427 for all variants of the Pe-2, starting in June 1940. Combined with the above tables, individual production rates could be extrapolated.

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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

Thanks for all the help guys. With all you've given me and the books mentioned I should be ok. [;)]

Looking at those numbers it kind of makes you wonder what Hitler was thinking when he declared war on the U.S. Was bad enough fighting the Soviets and Brits with U.S. help. But getting them involved directly?

Can't remember who it was but when Hitler declared war on the U.S. a high ranking Soviet was supposed to have said, "We have won the war". They called the U.S. a country of machines.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Thanks for all the help guys. With all you've given me and the books mentioned I should be ok. [;)]

Looking at those numbers it kind of makes you wonder what Hitler was thinking when he declared war on the U.S. Was bad enough fighting the Soviets and Brits with U.S. help. But getting them involved directly?

Can't remember who it was but when Hitler declared war on the U.S. a high ranking Soviet was supposed to have said, "We have won the war". They called the U.S. a country of machines.

Hitler wasn't the most consistent of guys. For example, he was quite capable of agreeing as early as 1942 that the war was lost and insisting as late as 1945 that it would still be won.

The rationalization was that now that America was at war with Germany's ally, it was bound to declare war on Germany as well, so it would somehow give Germany a psychological advantage if she declared war first.

However, a number of contributing -- and probably more powerful -- motives come to mind.

First, I think the decision owed a lot to the baiting Germany had endured throughout 1941 in the form of Lend-lease and the undeclared war with the US Navy in the Atlantic. Hitler had kept telling himself that it nevertheless made no sense to declare war on the United States -- but it must have worn on him.

So, the first chance he had to construct a rationalization for doing what he dearly wanted to do anyway, he took it.

Then Hitler had already exhibited a pattern of turning to a new enemy whenever the current one proved frustrating. He'd reached his decision to attack Russia about the time it became clear that (a) Britain was not going to sue for peace, and that (b) invading her would be risky as hell. So it's early December 1941, now Russia's being difficult -- and there's the United States! After all, Hitler was pretty much an enemy-driven person. He had to have an enemy, and he had to be smashing it. Since Russia was proving unsmashable at the moment, it would follow that...

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, there is Hitler's theory that all his enemies were merely so many tools of the international Jewish conspiracy. So of course it would make sense to attack America. After all, as tools of the IJC, they would already be doing all they could to harm him anyway.

In reality, of course, the declaration of war was a blunder of the first order, as Roosevelt would have had a great deal of difficulty keeping the US from following a 'Japan first' strategy in its absence. That in turn would have given Germany more of a chance to do what it had to do above all: finish off the Soviet Union. It wouldn't have succeeded in that anyway -- but continuing to refrain from declaring war on the United States would have been the right play.

I'd say that the failure represents a lack of political sophistication on Hitler's part. He totally failed to appreciate either the true nature of America or how it would be looking at things.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Curtis Lemay »

He was probably expecting it to induce the Japanese to reciprocate and declare war on the USSR. That could have made it worth it. But the Japanese didn't seem to grasp that if the USSR survived, the Axis was doomed - and that included them.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Looking at those numbers it kind of makes you wonder what Hitler was thinking when he declared war on the U.S.

"The Americans cannot build aeroplanes. They are very good at refrigerators and razor blades."
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Panama

Looking at those numbers it kind of makes you wonder what Hitler was thinking when he declared war on the U.S.

"The Americans cannot build aeroplanes. They are very good at refrigerators and razor blades."
- Herman Goering

To some extent, that might have owed something to the First World War. As it turned out, our troops in 1917-1918 had to fight mostly with British and French equipment.

Of course, we were able to win anyway. Still, it would have made it possible the reality of American production potential if one was so inclined. Of course, had the Germans contemplated the fact that the British they were fighting in North Africa were already fielding about half American tanks and planes, that might have given them pause.

But as it was, I imagine Hitler turned the fact around and said, 'America's already arming our enemies anyway...'
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

He was probably expecting it to induce the Japanese to reciprocate and declare war on the USSR. That could have made it worth it. But the Japanese didn't seem to grasp that if the USSR survived, the Axis was doomed - and that included them.

The Japanese really were curious. Quite unable to grasp a lot of things. In a lot of ways, completely unmodernized.

However, had Hitler really wanted the Japanese to reciprocate, he should have insisted on it.

As it was, there's my understanding that half of the lend-lease that went to Russia flowed quite unmolested across the Pacific to Vladivostok. That's incredible.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...the Japanese didn't seem to grasp that if the USSR survived, the Axis was doomed - and that included them.

Thinking about it, the Japanese were only peripherally involved in World War One -- and that may have affected how they viewed what they were getting into.

The modern wars they had conducted -- the Sino-Japanese War of 189_ and the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5 -- had been examples of the sort of eighteenth-nineteenth century war exemplified by the Crimean War or the War of 1870. These were struggles in which national existence (at least for the major players) wasn't at stake, but were rather relatively short, sharp clashes to determine spheres of influence and balances of power.

World War One, on the other hand, had seen political collapse in two of the major states involved, and the complete obliteration of another two. It was much more of a struggle to the death -- a struggle neither side was prepared to abandon until it had ended.

The other participants in World War Two would operate with an even more total vision of what 'victory' required. But Japan was still thinking that one good hard rap, and the US and Britain would just let her have East Asia just as Russia had agreed to lay off Turkey after the Crimean War or France had withdrawn her claim to meddle in affairs German after 1870.

This interpretation can be qualified in various ways, but essentially Japan entered the war with a paradigm that totally failed to anticipate what the response of the United States would in fact be. The 1940's were not an era of limited war.
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

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..
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Panama

Looking at those numbers it kind of makes you wonder what Hitler was thinking when he declared war on the U.S.

"The Americans cannot build aeroplanes. They are very good at refrigerators and razor blades."
- Herman Goering

I love it when the bad guy is an idiot. [:D]
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RE: Soviet WW2 Air Production

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Panama

I love it when the bad guy is an idiot. [:D]

It is pretty bad I mean, there are a number of things which he could have suggested about Americans which would be understandable- but building aeroplanes? Seriously?
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