Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list?

[wiking62]

I totally agree. See my previous post.

There were though some exceptions.

The High Command had lost all touch with reality at this stage of the war and many units existed on paper only.

[Theng]

I found the following books helpful when it comes to German Tank units: "The Panzer Legions" by Samuel W. Mitcham Jr. For example he states, Jueterborg had barely regimental strength. The divisional staff came from the 10th Pz Brigade, the Panzer Btl came from three companies of the Panzer Lehr Btl in Kummersdorf, the PzG Rgt were two Btl plus engineer and flak unit from alarm units in Berlin. The I Btl Pz Gren Rgt Juterborg 2 arrived from Munich and joined division on March 3 but more never materialized...

anyway, you get the drift

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength.

Note that those late war "divisions" were usually well below divisional strength

[Great_Ajax]

Yes, they arrive at 5% strength and the player has the option to refit them or not from the production pool.

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength.

Note that those late war "divisions" were usually well below divisional strength

[oldman45]

If you have had a perfect game, you can use those units to garrison Moscow [;)]

[Veldmaarschalk]

Here the strength of the Jüterborg division

Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Staff
Mapping Detachment (mot)
Escort Company (mot)
-Infantry Platoon (4xHMG, 6xLMG)
-Motorcycle Platoon (6xLMG)
-Flak Platoon (self-propelled) (4 x 20mm FlaK)
-Military Police Detachment (mot) (5xLMG)


Jüterbog Panzer Battalion
- Panzer battalion staff (1xLMG + 2 command tanks)
- Staff Company (8xLMG + 3 20mm FlaK Vierling)
- 2 x Company (10 PzKw IV tanks each)
- 1 x Company (10 PzKw IV L tanks)
- Panzer Maintenance Platoon (4xLMG)
- Panzer Supply Company (4xLMG)

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment
- Staff Company
- Signals Platoon
- Motorcycle Platoon (4xLMG)

- Battalion
--Supply Company (4xLMG)
-- 2 x Company (half-track) (5xHMG, 30xLMG, 2x80mm mortars, 7x20mm and 2x75mm guns each)
-- Company (mot) (4xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortars)
-- Heavy Company (tmot) (6x20mm FlaK, 2xLMG, 4x120mm mortars)

- Battalion
-- Supply Company (4xLMG)
-- 3 x Company (mot) (3xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortars each)
-- Heavy Company (tmot) (6x20mm FlaK, 2xLMG, 4x120mm mortars)

- Heavy Infantry Gun Company (4x150mm sIG and 2xLMG)

- Pioneer Company (18xflamethrowers, 2xHMG, 12xLMG and 2x80mm mortars)

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company
- Jagdpanzer Battery (10xJagdpanzer)
- Panzerjäger Company (half-track) (6xSdKfz 251/22 with 75mm PaK)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company
- 3 x SdKfz 250/8 with 75mm guns and 12 SdKfz 234/1 with 20mm guns)

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment
- Staff Battery (2xLMG)

- Battalion
-- Staff Battery (mot) (2xLMG and 3x20mm FlaK guns)

- 3 x Battery (tmot) (4x105mm leFH and 4xLMG each)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion
- Staff Battery (mot) (4xLMG)
- 3 x Battery (motZ) (4x88mm, 2x20mm and 2xLMG each)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company
- 2xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortar

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company
- 12xLMG

Supply & Support Units

Source: Georg F. Nafziger, The German Order of Battle, Panzers and Artillery in World War II

As mentioned above this division was used to reform the 16th Panzer-Division, which on march 25, 1945 had the following armour-strength

16th Panzer-Division
- 31 StuG (8 serviceable)
- 4 Pz IV L (0 serviceable)
- 16 Pz IV/70 (8 serviceable)
- 10 Pz V (9 serviceable)

Source: Die Deutsche Panzertruppe 1943 - 1945, Thomas J. Jentz.

The main question is though, should those divisions appear if you are Germany and winning the war in East ? These divisions were created from all kinds of reserve and training units, who were rushed into the frontline because the Russians were advancing. It it very unlikely that these divisions would have been formed if the Germans were still fighting on the Wolga f.e. in 1944/1945.

[jaw]

It is hard to conceive how the Axis player could be winning the War in 1945. The dynamics of the game are such that the longer the Red Army exists the less chance the Axis player has of winning. If you can't destroy the Red Army by the end of 1942, you probably can't do any better than a draw.

[vinnie71]

We will try.... [:)]
 
Since many of these late war divisions were scratch formations at best, would their theoretical strength be the same as regular divisions?
 
Also, German divisions underwent various resizings/reorganisations during the war. They became progressively weaker (at least in manpower and armour for Pz Div). Would these reorganisations be strictly enforced? Eg, if you manage to preserve a sufficiently large pool of panzers to maintain your average PZ Div at '41 strength in '44, would you be forced to downsize all the same?

[Great_Ajax]

Yes, the OB changes are madatory and the scratch formations are the same OBs as the regulars. I think that with adding these dozen scratch formations and also keep in mind that divisions are not withdrawn artbitarily if they were disbanded historically so you should have plenty of venues to use up that excess pool of panzers that you think you might have For example, the game won't automatically withdraw those Panzer Brigades and it will be up to player to disband them or keep them. As previously discussed, I can't imagine trying to come up with hypothetical TO&Es based on different outcomes of the campaign so we have to stick with what we know. If play testing reveals a huge pool of equipment sitting idle, I am sure we would want to resolve that.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

We will try.... [:)]

Since many of these late war divisions were scratch formations at best, would their theoretical strength be the same as regular divisions?

Also, German divisions underwent various resizings/reorganisations during the war. They became progressively weaker (at least in manpower and armour for Pz Div). Would these reorganisations be strictly enforced? Eg, if you manage to preserve a sufficiently large pool of panzers to maintain your average PZ Div at '41 strength in '44, would you be forced to downsize all the same?

[vinnie71]

I was just suggesting a possible (or not so possible???) scenario. German divisions will be reduced drastically in 1944 so maybe only their experience could really save them. This would be especially true if the Russians start getting those corps size units in some quantity...

[bclemans]

At least in WIR, there are times when excess" armor are available, more like older equipment such as stug IIIb that have yet to be upgraded to Stug IIIg

How about allow the the change of the "type" of armor in armor battalions (whether they are independent, attached or intergral part of a panzer division)?

Interchangable equipment for Pz, Stug, JgPz battalions

If there are 300 extra Stugs available in the pool when most Stug battalion are at full strength, the change can allow understrength Panzer units to become Stug units and use this replacement pool. This will help the Axis player to use resources more efficiently.

Eg if the 211th Panzer Bn has only 15 Panzer II, allow it to accept Stug, put it back to HQ to get re-equipped ith Stugs

Many times the replacement pool for panzers are already hard pressed, there aren't enough panzer II, III, IV...etc.

[ComradeP]

After reading bclemans post, I have a question: can equipment upgrade/change type (as in: a Pz IV becoming a later model through conversion)? That would really help with pools of one kind/type of equipment, as they could be converted/upgraded to something else.

[Great_Ajax]

Hmmm. Not sure about that one. Pavel, the productions master, could answer it.

Trey

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

After reading bclemans post, I have a question: can equipment upgrade/change type (as in: a Pz IV becoming a later model through conversion)? That would really help with pools of one kind/type of equipment, as they could be converted/upgraded to something else.

Aircraft and Ground units (tanks, guns, squads, etc.) have upgrade paths but the physical unit itself does not upgrade. For example, when the Panzer IVg upgrades to the Panzer IVh, Panzer IVgs in the pool are not converted into Panzer IVhs. They are eventually removed from the pool and their "conversion" is built into the Panzer IVh production number. It was necessary to do it this way in order to get as reasonably close to historic production as possible.

[ComradeP]

So a number of Panzer IVG's are eventually removed from the pool and added to Panzer IVH production levels to indicate upgrading? Are there formula's for that so the Axis player can prepare for upgrade paths in advance?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

So a number of Panzer IVG's are eventually removed from the pool and added to Panzer IVH production levels to indicate upgrading? Are there formula's for that so the Axis player can prepare for upgrade paths in advance?

If you drill down on the combat unit's elements (such as a Panzer IVg) the screen will tell you what it upgrades to. I assume you will also be able to go into the editor and follow the upgrade path yourself.

I should mention here that the upgrades don't work like they did in WIR. An upgrade doesn't automatically trigger older equipment to swap out. Unless you have a lot of the new type available (which could take weeks) the old type will continue in service for a considerable time until it is either eliminated by attrition or swapped out when the number available become low enough for swapping.

[ComradeP]

So the eventual number of conversions/production of the new type does depend on having the older type in the pool? In other words: if you somehow have no or a very limited number of Panzer IVG's in the pool, less Panzer IVH's will be produced than when you have a higher amount of Panzer IVG's in the pool?

[vinnie71]

Maybe its a similar system to WitP. A set production run per a set period would upgrade a unit's TO&E. Old equipment would eventually convert to new and will substitute older equipment in other units...

[Platypus]

ORIGINAL: bclemans

I like the ability to disband poor performing divisions, like the Luftwaffe field divisions as mentioned in another thread.

Is it possible to list all the German divisions (for the Eastern Front) and their availability date at this forum? If I remember correctly, I think the WIR's manual included a table.

The reason I ask is that some of the divisions (for the Eastern Front) were not included in WIR, such as some late war SS divisons and army panzer divisions. I understand that some of these divisions were created at battalion size / less than divisional size. However, since it was mentioned that the Soviet's has the ability to create new formations, it is only fair that the Germans are given all the destinated divisions - regardless whether they are understrength or not.

And whether they are "understrength or not" depends on the progress of the game (from the replacement pool). So if the replacement pool can handle these divisions, they should be allowed to be built up over time.

If it is too much trouble to provide the list at this point, I will be willing to type my list of "no show" late war German divisions for your review. Thanks

Further to previous posts about Fallschirmjäger units on the Eastern Front, here is a source that appears to provide a good summary of units and operations;

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... -1941-1945

cheers

[Platypus]

And on the subject of Brandenburger Units - here is a good source for some of their Operations behind-the-lines in Russia.

These units were small, however, their effectiveness in this type of operation was significantly disproportionate to their size. The question is though, how to model this in the game.

Is there any way to code the elements of such operations by combining the elements of"surprise & audacity" into the game engine so that special forces operations are properly added to the experience?


"In early August 1942, a Brandenburger unit of 62 Baltic and Sudeten Germans led by Freiherr Adrian von Fölkersam penetrated farther into enemy territory than any other German unit.

They had been ordered to seize and secure the vital Maikop oilfields. Disguised as dreaded NKVD men, and driving Soviet trucks, Fölkersam’s unit passed through the Soviet front lines and moved deep into hostile territory.

The Brandenburgers ran into a large group of Red Army deserters fleeing from the front. Fölkersam saw an opportunity to use them to the unit’s advantage. By persuading them to return to the Soviet cause, he was able to join with them and move almost at will through the Russian lines.

Operating under false identity of NKVD Major Truchin based in Stalingrad, Fölkersam explained his role in recovering the deserters to the Soviet commander in charge of Maikop's defenses.

The commander not only believed Fölkersam, but the next day gave him a personal tour of the city's defenses. By August 8, the German spearheads were only 12 miles away.

The Brandenburgers made their move. Using grenades to simulate an artillery attack, they knocked out the military communications center for the city. Fölkersam then went to the Russian defenders and told them that a withdrawal was taking place.

Having seen Fölkersam with their commander and lacking any communications to rebut or confirm his statement, the Soviets began to evacuate Maikop. The German spearhead entered the city without a fight on August 9, 1942.

This is only one example of the hundreds of missions performed by the Brandenburgers during the advance into Russia.

By 1943, the most common mission assignment was long range reconnaissance. During the 1942 advance of Heeresgruppe Süd
Army Group South in Ukraine, the Brandenburgers revived their role from the early days of the campaign, forging ahead of the Panzer columns, seizing bridges, road and rail junctions, and attacking the Soviet command and control structure. Mostly, these missions were performed by units of 20-60 Brandenburgers, dressed as Soviets and driving captured Red Army vehicles.

Between January and April 1943, the Brandenburgers were expanded to the size of a division , and specialized subunits for U-boat crews, air defense, artillery, tank, antitank and combat engineering were created. Men were transferred from the Afrika Korps and Kriegsmarine, and also Muslims from Yugoslavia and volunteers from India."

Source: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Brandenburgers


cheers