Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

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Dobey455
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Dobey455 »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


read the quatermasters reports, they didn't get killed, and it was only one AFV that didn't have MGs on it

end of the battle, they were able to pull a number of Panzer Divs out of the lines and rush them to the Med to defend against the landings there, with out having to refit

the loss of the Panzer Divs at Kursk is a Russian Myth

From what I've read this is pretty much the case. Kursk was the largest armoured battle in history, yes, but it wasn't the loss of Armour that hurt the Germans it was the staggering losses to their Panzer Grenadier formations (The elite mechanised infantry). In particular the Grossdeutchland Division(sp) was out of action for some time, not cause it couldn't replace the tanks, but because it couldn't train quality infantry fast enough to replace casualties.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Q-Ball »

"What If's" are always interesting, but moreso to me for the War in Europe.

I think the Germans could have produced a different result by not attacking Russia, or keeping up the pressure on the RAF, not declaring war on USA, or any number of interesting scenarios that possibly could have changed the war's outcome. Even if the RAF is destroyed I don't think the Brits surrender, but I guess you can argue it's possible.

I struggle, though, to come up with any what-if that would produce a result for Japan other than it's destruction. Better pilots, more carriers, reverse Midway, etc......the result to me is all the same. Japan gets crushed in 1944, period. I suppose it's theoretically possible that Japan retains more territory by withdrawing from China and suing for peace, but the Army would NEVER have allowed it, even if the Emperor had ordered it.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


not read that in ages, but got much better ones lying around :)

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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks.  That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.


only 90 Ferdinand didn´t have a MG, all other tanks had them. Strategically this hasn´t had any effect on the Germans. Halve of those heavy tank destroyers were equipped with an MG34 as a field conversion.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Don't "poo-poo" the lack of machine guns on German tanks.  That killed the Panzer divisions during the Battle of Kursk.
Eh, that's probably a misunderstanding, stemming from the fact that Elefants (and only them) indeed had no machine guns. Except, they only got in a situation where they needed them once during the entire battle (normally, they were placed in the rear of tank formations to repel counterattacks with their heavy guns). And there was only 90 of them out of approximately 3 thousands of tanks, tank killers and self-propelled guns.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by moonraker65 »

Well for me it's the first one. Because the Japanese also didn't fit much in the way of protective armour for pilots either which caused a fair few casualties especially once the Allies got better fighters.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Q-Ball »

How about this choice:

1) Japanese failure to appreciate the effectiveness of US submarines, and commit adequate resources

2) German failure to put economy on full war footing until 1942. Even then, failure to adopt full US industrial practices for assembly line production (rather than "batch" production)

3) German failure to develop a strategic bomber (the Luftwaffe was really a ground-support airforce)

....I think any of these are probably more important than the original list. Maybe too strategic, because you could add to that, in general: "Axis failure to fully appreciate the industrial strength and resolve of the Allied powers, particularly that of the United States"
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Zemke »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?

1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor

2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns

3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain

All of three of these make huge assumtions, and should be put into historical context.
For Example...
(2) Most German tanks had MGs, the one you refer to in the Battle of Kursk was known as the Elephant or Ferdinand, based on the Porsche chassis. 90 were built and sent to the battle, they were credited with over 500 tank kills. 48 survived the battle. The only way to kill them due to their heavy armor was close assault by infantry, thus the famous "they had no MG problem. When they were used properly, according to doctrine, they were very effective killers of other tanks.

1943 - German SP Assault Gun/Tank Destroyer 8.8cm(3.5") Mounted on Porsche Tiger Tank chassis (Sd Kfz 184)"Elephant" "Ferdinand"
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JohnDillworth
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by JohnDillworth »

How about this choice:

1) Japanese failure to appreciate the effectiveness of US submarines, and commit adequate resources

2) German failure to put economy on full war footing until 1942. Even then, failure to adopt full US industrial practices for assembly line production (rather than "batch" production)

3) German failure to develop a strategic bomber (the Luftwaffe was really a ground-support airforce)

1 was huge. The USN essentially accomplished what the Kriegsmarine wanted to do with the U-boats. Almost complete shutdown of a merchant fleet

2 was big but the economy did eventually come up to speed. Not mass producing adequate models of tanks hurt. They developed excellent tanks but could not mass produce them. Thje tiger is a great example. They were like coo koo clocks. Each hand built in Bavaria. They did however, produce pelnty of adequate aircraft. Plenty of 109's and 190's. Excellent aircraft both.

# 3 I don't think would have made any difference. Russians had massive industrial capacity and they just would have moved it further and further back. Unless they came up with a B-29 it would have made no difference.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Which do you think cost the Axis Powers the greatest strategic harm in World War II?

1) Japanese failure to equip fighters with self-sealing gas tanks and armor

2) German failure to equip heavy tanks with machine guns

3) German failure to have fighters with sufficient legs to escort bombers deeply into Britain


None of the above. Failure to adequately mobilize their industrial base to support a prolonged battle of attrition was by far the worst blunder. None of the Axis powers really tried to fully mobilize their economies until 1943---which is why their most productive year was 1944. There are many reasons for this, but all come back to the basic ignorance and prejudice of their military and national command authority.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Whisper »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
None of the above. Failure to adequately mobilize their industrial base to support a prolonged battle of attrition was by far the worst blunder. None of the Axis powers really tried to fully mobilize their economies until 1943---which is why their most productive year was 1944. There are many reasons for this, but all come back to the basic ignorance and prejudice of their military and national command authority.
Yes none of the above. What caused the greatest harm?
4) their existence. based on their dependance on charismatic but mentally deranged leadership.

What is this doing in a Pacific War forum anyway.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Footslogger »

If I recall the Germans were in the process of buidling a CV. The hull was finished, but Hitler abandoned it. Does anyone know what the name was suppost to be?
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

If I recall the Germans were in the process of buidling a CV. The hull was finished, but Hitler abandoned it. Does anyone know what the name was suppost to be?

Graf Zeppelin. More of a heavy CVL that a CV.
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topeverest
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by topeverest »

MIke SCholls comments are pretty spot-on, but one must not overlook the findemental lack of leadership at the top in Italy, Germany, and Japan. There is where the critical errors occured. These are the 'Dunkirk' errors. Without a doubt, those issues proposed and discussed above certianly were all major tactical issues that impacted the war within the context of the larger issues.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by Drambuie »




ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

None of the above. Failure to adequately mobilize their industrial base to support a prolonged battle of attrition was by far the worst blunder. None of the Axis powers really tried to fully mobilize their economies until 1943---which is why their most productive year was 1944. There are many reasons for this, but all come back to the basic ignorance and prejudice of their military and national command authority.

Precisely ... pointless debate really as there was so much that they didn't do right. Could never win the U-Boat campaign as they never commited enough resources to it (and after '43 it was as good as over) and the war on the Eastern front was always the priority, could never win the Battle of Britain as they didn't have the range once the RAF pulled back to more northern bases (and didn't have the right bomber as already discussed), could never invade as the RN would have shredded their invasion force.

ORIGINAL: topeverest

MIke SCholls comments are pretty spot-on, but one must not overlook the findemental lack of leadership at the top in Italy, Germany, and Japan. There is where the critical errors occured. These are the 'Dunkirk' errors. Without a doubt, those issues proposed and discussed above certianly were all major tactical issues that impacted the war within the context of the larger issues.

Agreed ... one example already discussed - Kursk - was never, ever going to work once the Russians countered it with massive defensive lines and air superiority. One great point that sums up the whole thing is made by Murray and Millet in 'A War to be Won' - the essentially pointless V weapon projects cost the German war economy an estimated equivalent of 24000 fighter aircraft's worth of production ... says it all about their misguided strategy really.

As for Japan the Wargames film quote - 'A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.' - suits their situation pretty well perhaps?
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by DeriKuk »

I think Mike Scholl 1 has nailed the essence of the strategic error . . . plus the fact that the war continued after July 1940.

On the other hand, could the tyrants have remained in power with a failing Keynesian-socialist economy without the mobilizing distraction of a war against an "outside threat"?
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by LeeChard »

With all the engineering power at the hands of Germany I'm always left scratching my head wonder why nobody thought of rigging up drop tanks for those early 109's. If they could carry 250lb bombs imagine how much loiter time that amount of fuel would have given them. Maybe enough to tip the balance their way.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by DeriKuk »

Even if the Luftwaffe had trashed the RAF, Operation Seeloewe was a still-born, dead-ended, not-ever-going-to-happen, non-event. The Germans simply lacked the amphibious lift-capacity in 1940, and with their sclerotic industrial base it would have taken years to overcome that deficiency. The Axis strategic capability of 1940 is almost invisible against the Allied capability of 1944 . . . and the latter was a near-run thing, and could have ended in disaster had the Germans been more strategically competent.

Assuming a best-case scenario for the Germans in 1940 - no RAF, no Royal Navy in the Channel, an unopposed landing - it would have been a matter of weeks before the bulk of the invaders were the "guests" of King George. The attrition rate of the supply barges during crossings would have left the invaders starved of every imaginable type of supply. The Channel gets choppy after the summer, and laden river barges are not particularly seaworthy.

More realistically: The Germans would not have captured any viable, undynamited, functioning ports within their limited reach. Once the Germans had landed, Bomber Command and the RN would have paid the struggling landing zones a devastating visit . . . night after night. Even daylight supplies making it to landing zones under Luftwaffe cover would have been inadequate, and would barely have made it off the few useful beaches and jetties.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by DeriKuk »

I think someone else already mentioned the biting-off-waaaayyyy-more-than-you-can-chew, brain-dead event that unfolded a year later to the east of [former-]Poland. That was the date when Axis defeat was assured.
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RE: Which Caused the Axis Powers the Greatest Harm

Post by spence »

If one accepts that Hitler and the Japanese military leaders "had" to get into a war with the US and the Soviet Union and the UK then the greatest strategic failing was to have a plan to win. The Wehrmacht had no plan for exploiting the defeat of France: apparently the hope that the Brits would just give up was substituted for a plan to beat them prior to the BoB (when Op SeaLion was cobbled up out of zero prior preparation). A really rational plan to beat the Soviet Union was likewise lacking. Pushing on to Vladivostok was never a possibility and pushing on to the A-A Line really did little to force the S.U. to make peace. Like the French coast it represented a place to reach whereupon the "hope strategy" would be the endgame. Only the real dope-fiends even thought about how to force the US to give up.

The Japanese were just nuts to even consider winning.
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