Hunting the Hibiki: Q-Ball (Allies) v Cuttlefish (Japan)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Something just dawned on me (since I really know very little about the Allied side of things).  vlcz asked a question above that I didn't catch until crsutton's message.  Are you moving restricted units into Burma?  If that's the case, then I see a real issue.  No restricted unit (on either side) should be able to move over a national border.  That was a problem I ran into in an old WitP PBEM.  Chinese units flooded into Burma totally overwhelming the Japanese.  Just a thought....

I missed this caveat too, but agree with crsutton's observations. Pay the PP to use the Indians en masse on a Burmese offensive.

Playing the IJA with the ITA divisions, I must confess to willingness to use them 'just' over the border at Pegu. My temptation has extended their mission to capture Rangoon in one of my PBEMs. I don't intend to go further.

I can make some arguments for why this is a more reasonable force disposition than schlepping Chinese masses across 500 miles of tractless jungle into yet more tractless jungle in another country (e.g., Burma). However, like the Burmese 'battalions' / rabble, if the system didn't want me to move 'em, it should have fixed 'em in place.

That's my long-winded way of saying that I hesitate to use the blanket 'no restricted unit on either side' statement when discussing uses of my troops.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers
I am concerned about this also. In Canoerebel's game where he is invading northern Japan in early 43 in the winter. I don't think that would have been doable in the northern Pacific in winter...

This invasion was extremely costly for Allies. The only part that can be seen as totally ahistorical, as opposed to the result of the willingless to pay for the success with many dozens of ships on the part of the Allied command, is the length of time for which garrisons on the conquered islands can maintain active air operations, despite not getting any supply by sea.

So, the core problem in all cases can be identified as way-too-easy logistics.

[Capt. Harlock]

Anytime the IJA air shows itself, it is instantly bombed/destroyed by the RAF. The Wehrmacht in 1944 had more air support.

I have to agree that the flow of supplies and the training of Indian troops seems unrealistically easy for the Allies. However, I think one of the key reasons that the British did not do as well historically was the need to commit considerable resources to the forgotten campaign of WWII: the Madagascar campaign. This lasted longer than it should have because there was a French law stating that officers who had been in a combat theater six months or longer were entitled to higher pensions. The Vichy therefore dragged out the conquest of Madagascar for the appropriate time, instead of sensibly surrendering.

A second point is that I feel Cuttlefish made a serious error in not contesting the skies over Burma. It's much harder to build an air defense from bombed runways and new squadrons rather than squadrons already in theater. This in turn has given a major boost to your ground combat.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

... if the system didn't want me to move 'em, it should have fixed 'em in place.

Early on with the release of AE they stated that they tried to implement national borders but just didn't have time to make them work right. IMO it's just an item for players to adhere to on their own. YMMV.

[Q-Ball]

I definitely am using several Restricted Indian units. Never thought of a House Rule around that. Perhaps it should be standard now?

As far as experience, if you train them, the Indian formations get 50+ experience, which is acceptable. As long as you are not heavily fighting, you have enough replacements to round out almost ALL of them by October 1942. So, they are all pretty much trained and ready to go. The Tank units are still short; I only had enough to fill out the Recon units and one Tank Bde, but everything else is full-strength. So the game gives you the strength to do it.

Maybe I should pull everyone back, and only cross with non-restricted units. I think that is a viable solution. I think EVERYONE should consider this as a standard HR for the future. It will turn the Burma/India area into what is pretty much was; a low-intensity stalemate.

[khyberbill]

I definitely am using several Restricted Indian units. Never thought of a House Rule around that. Perhaps it should be standard now?

I buy out the restricted Indian units. Same as I buy out the marine units in the US that should not have been restricted in the first place. Several large units in the US that should have been unrestricted are restricted. In fact, when AE came out, one of the US divisions at or near the start of the game was unrestricted (I forget the unit number) but became restricted after the first hotfix. Frankly, I wish they would do away with most restricted units. In Manchuko, make the magic number that activates Russia a random number from unknown to ? that is generated at the start of a game and base it on loading capacity, not AV. In India and China, and major cities such as Rangoon, Bangkok, HK re-look at garrison requirements. Take the discussion or restricted units off the forum. Now then, who do I talk to abut increasing the production rate of Corsairs?

[BrucePowers]

Posted in the wrong place. My apologies.

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I definitely am using several Restricted Indian units. Never thought of a House Rule around that. Perhaps it should be standard now?
...
I think that is a viable solution. I think EVERYONE should consider this as a standard HR for the future.

As long as I know it is even a change the devs intended to made in at second patch but didn´t make in time ...

[KenchiSulla]

Well, if they are restricted I believe it is fair to keep them in India (unless you have paid the PP's?). Think about all those infantry units in Manchuko the Japanese player could move into China... I believe that is the same

[Q-Ball]

Burma: Let the record show that Cuttlefish didn't ask for any quarter in Burma, but that I came to the conclusion that it's out of control. As a result, I have asked for a Cease Fire in Burma, and will be pulling back all the Restricted units.

I do plan to try to hang onto Myiktyina. Cuttlefish held it with a single Regt, so I don't feel too guilty about it; maybe he can shove me out. I am buying an Indian Division to help with that, and have a few other units that are non-restricted available.

I think this is fair; the British should not be able to roll into Burma like this. The huge RAF presence is bad enough, no sense having massive land unit attacks as well.

So, the Burma offensive is over. No para drop on Tayung Gyi. I was kind of hoping to see how that one turned out. As it happens, it's going to have to wait until 1943 or 1944, when I have enough PPs to send the Indian Army back into Burma in force.

Combat Report, Nov 14-17, 1942

Otherwise, little combat these two turns, but a few things are about to happen....

DEI: An Australian Bde plus tanks are loading at Port Hedland, to land at Raba. Raba is currently Dutch, so they will unload at the pier, but I am treating it like a contested invasion, because it's only 4 hexes from Makassar and bound to get Cuttlefish's full attention.

I have follow-on engineers also building up. This base will put some pressure on, and make it look like I am moving toward Java. Although that's not a bad idea, I'm not really interested in a land battle on Java. I might move on Mataram in order to close Soerbaba port, but that's about it. I am more interested in a move on Celebes, and specifically closing the Makassar Strait. If I do that, all the Oil in the SRA will have to transit between Cam Ranh Bay and Brunei through the South China Sea. I will flood that area with subs and get to work.......

Next step after Raba will be Salajar, a little island I had never heard of before south of Celebes. Securing Salajar, which is undefended, will provide easy aircover for a move on Kendari.

SUPPLY LINES: Our main axis of advance in the Pacific will continue to be through the DEI. No sense wasting effort elsewhere, when that's where the Oil is. I do, however, plan a couple other operations in the Pacific. They have several objectives:

1. Keep pressure on elsewhere, so he has to think about multiple threats
2. Clear a much shorter supply line to Darwin; specifically, I want to open the Torres Strait to shipping. If I do that, it's going to make the DEI alot easier to reinforce from the USA.
3. Draw combat troops away from the DEI and into the SW Pacific

Ellice Islands: Our troops land in two days on all 3 islands of the Ellice Island chain. This invasion is really just to expand our search coverage, and provide an early warning system so that transport traffic is secure as far as Fiji.

Other units are prepping for a landing at Luganville and Efate, which are the next steps. This will effectively cut-off Noumea. I plan to then land at Koumac, build an airbase, and keep Noumea in check. If there garrison at Noumea is anything larger than a Regt, I am going to bypass it; don't need it at the moment.

Port Moresby: I am pulling together an invasion here, and should be ready in 30 days or so. The primary objective will be to open the Torres Strait, with the secondary objective of luring in the IJA.

In the SW Pacific, all these moves will make it appear that Rabaul is a long-term target. It isn't. I don't plan to go any further in the SW Pacific than Ndeni, Port Moresby, and Milne Bay. Once those are secure, my bombers will pound Lae, Rabaul, and Lunga into dust so that they can't interfere with my convoys. There will be no battle of Guadalcanal in this game! I'm already planning to invade Kendari, why do I need to screw around with Munda or anything like that?

[ComradeP]

You're an honourable man in an age where chivalry is supposed to be dead Q-Ball, that is to be commended.

I'm assuming that although the bases might still be Dutch, the KNIL units are all dead and/or gone?

[Q-Ball]

It's the right thing to do, and we should have had that HR all along.

Combat Report, Nov 17, 1942

Ellice Islands: We land tommorow, and I haven't even seen a search aircraft. I think we approached undetected. We'll see; if that's the case, this should be real easy.

Invasion Preps: All US units are prepping for offensive targets. Initially, landings on Wake Is up north, and Luganville/Efate down south, plus all the New Guinea targets. Should be heating up shortly.

[Canoerebel]

Q-Ball, why New Guinea?  With the Allies solidly entrenched in the DEI, pour all your troops into that theater.  Look at the strategic map - your advance in the DEI is a dagger right into the Japanese vitals.  New Guinea, the Solomons, and Rabaul were rendered pretty much irrelevant by your action.
 
I can understand you wanting Noumea back just to guard the flank of your supply lines from the West Coast to NZ and Oz, but even Luganville is largely irrelevant. 
 
As you head deep into '43, you'll have so much LBA and carrier power in the DEI that Cuttlefish won't be able to stop you.  The limiting factor will likely be ground troops.  Get as much to a good jumping-off point (Darwin?) as possible. 
 
 

[Raverdave]

Sorry gents but I have to weigh in on the discussion about the current "unbalanced" ability of the allies to move into Burma or any other place on the map prior to '43.

Without derailing this excellent AAR or causing a JFB Vs AFB argument,  I don't see any crys of "not fair" when a Japanese player sweeps deep into the the south pacific, nor when he takes NZ or lands troops in Northern Oz or takes PNG...all of which are "Ahistorical".  Never saw any complaints when in WitP the Japs swamped India either (and in the current WitPAE they can still reach as far as Colombo if they want).
The allies are neutered enough as it stands with restricted commands without forcing even more PP to be spent, and I for one would not be happy to see that occur.

IF a balance has to be addressed it should be in the ability to supply over (or should I say through) jungle hexes.    

[Astarix]

Q-ball,

You should definitely pay the PP for the restricted command units. However, I don't think Burma is badly out of whack as some people suggest. Historically there was very little support in India for a "popular revolt", despite what some claim. There was a lot of turmoil (mainly panic) in India especially during the first 6 months but despite 200 years of resentment of British economic exploitation the Indian leaders were pragmatists and were in no hurry to replace one set of oppressive occupiers with another set that was far worse. And make no mistake, the Indians knew exactly what they were going to get from the Japanese, if the Japanese managed to win. If anything there was a sense on the part of many Indians, that if they contributed significantly to the war effort, it would be difficult at best for the British to maintain their colonial control once the war was over. The idea that India was on the verge of open revolt is a myth.

The Indian National Army, for instance, never amounted to more than 40,000 men and maybe a quarter of them were combat effective troops. They were never able to deliver on their grandiose promises to the Japanese. In fact their single biggest contribution to the Japanese war effort was the occupation of the Andaman Islands. One could argue that by convincing the Japanese Army in Burma that they could successfully invade India, the leaders of the INA did more to help the Allies than they did to help the Japanese.

The real problem for the Allies was paranoia, political infighting, and in many cases gross incompetence or self delusion. The British deliberately tied down several divisions to suppress revolts that never happened even when it was clear the appetite for revolution was nonexistent as long as the war was on. Another problem was the British were convinced that the Indian formations would mutiny if they sent them to fight in Burma (and some formations were on the verge of doing so, but it wasn't as widespread a problem as supposed). A supposition that the Indians took advantage of to win concessions, on pay, leadership, etc. from the British High Command. Also, The British were reluctant to go on the offensive until they had complete Naval superiority, because they thought that the only way they could re-invade Burma was via a series of grand Amphibious operations. In point of fact, moving supplies overland was never nearly as difficult for the Allies as claimed. At least not for the operation to secure Myitkina when the Allies finally did go on the offensive. They just hired 10's of thousands of porters and hauled a lot of the food and ammunition by Longshank. What they couldn't haul by porter they flew in with transports after they recaptured Myitkina. The operation to retake Burma succeeded in 4 months despite the fact that even after the catastrophe at Kohima, the Japanese still had around 450,000 men in Burma. Granted a sizeable number were not first line troops. But they never were, and the size of the "Japanese Army" in Burma was one of the excuses the British used to justify a more passive stance in this front.

The Americans were arguing, rightfully, by the end of 1942, that the Allies could/should mount an offensive into Burma after the monsoon in the Spring of 1943 as they saw Burma as an opportunity. Instead, they decided to go with the Chindits and Merrills Marauders, which, as it turned out, ended up contributing very little to the Allied war effort, but made for good propaganda and fantasy. The materials and men they wasted on these efforts would have been much better used to support the indigenous Burmese populations that were already engaged in a fairly extensive Guerilla war with the Japanese army and its sympathizers. But the British figured they could bring Burma back into the colonial fold once the war was over, so they resisted supporting these forces in favor of wasted efforts like the Chindits.

Effectively the Allies wasted 2 years screwing around and convincing themselves of the difficulties, or pandering to Chiang. True an offensive through the Jungle was not a simple undertaking and would have been more difficult than it appears to be in this game, at least during the monsoon, but neither was it impossible. The sheer size of allied manpower and equipment advantage on this front was staggering and by 1943, it was overwhelming. Something the game has modeled correctly. If the Japanese players want to hold Burma then they need to pay for it, by committing sufficient troops to do so. Something the Japanese discovered historically. If a Japanese player is only going to commit 5 divisions to Burma then he deserves to lose.

[Q-Ball]

Raverdave: There is no doubt the Japanese in AE are able to supply and sustain troops over longer distances than historical. This is also true for the Allies; my offensive in DEI was not possible in real life, or at least the Allies didn't think so. I agree on Jungle supply. I am more of a japanese player at heart, but I think the Restricted rule is the right one.
Astarix: I hear you, though the reality is the British weren't strong enough to attack Burma like I did in 1942. The Japanese need to up their commitment there as the war goes on, but 5 divisions should be plenty to hold it in 1942.

Combat Report, Nov 18,19 1942

Ellice Islands: 2 Regts of Marines and an Infantry Bn landed on all 3 islands of the Ellice chain. 2 were undefended. Nukufetau had a garrision of a Nav Gd unit, and an SNLF Co; we took it anyway, wiping out the SNLF Co. Once we recover a bit, we will start attacking the Nav Gds to wipe them out as well.

I am already picking up the Regt. that landed on Funafuti; we are moving them back to Vava'u, and thence to Australia/Perth to go to DEI. I only plan to leave behind a single Bn, plus a small Base Force unit, on the northernmost island; we will set-up a seaplane base, and that's it.

Kido Butai: I have no idea where it is; last sighting was moving toward Singapore about 10 days ago. I know it can't interfere with the Ellice landings (which is why I did them with minimal air support). But what will CF do next with it?

I am paranoid about 2 things:

1. Port Raid on Port Hedland. This would be bad. At the moment, all my fighters are deployed forward, though I am starting to get more. I think I am leaving myself open here, so I am going to start "storing" ships at Broome instead. I am also sending out a couple pickets to the North and Northwest to spot trouble; i.e., when Vals come screaming in, I will know where KB is. That's about all I can do, I can't rely on Nav Search.

2. Raid on supply lines: He did this once, and only found a couple tankers, but I expect another try. To counter, I am going to try to move ships in small groups. It's about all I can do about it, other than lots of LR CAP, which is a pain to constantly manage.

Anyway, the IJN has been quiet since the last round of combat.

Next Steps: Canoerebel raised an interesting question: Why am I invading New Guinea, when the real action is in the DEI?

It is a good question, and I have a good reason for doing so, though his question did get me thinking, and tweaking my plans a bit. I don't like to disperse forces, but I also don't want Cuttlefish to completely ignore the rest of the Pacific. I have to put up at least a semblance of offensive, to keep him guessing, and keep him committed to the western Pacific. I also need to shorten my supply lines to the Southern DEI if I can.

To accomplish both, I plan a landing at Port Moresby, the New Hebrides, and New Caledonia; capturing all of these should open the Torres Strait, or at least open it enough that I can send convoys through there on occasion. With airbases at Port Moresby and Merauke, I can use them to bomb Lae or Hollandia or any other airbase that might have Bettys that can threaten the Torres strait. I probably can't 100% prevent Betty attacks unless I actually conquer Northern NG, which is too much of an effort. But if I have airbases on Southern New Guinea, I can at least bomb his airbases, and provide some CAP to convoys through the Strait. This is what I hope to accomplish.

So, I plan to take these objectives, and go no further in the SW Pacific. The other reason I am going ahead with these operations is that I have several divisions already almost 100% prepped for these targets, so I may as well go. I want Cuttlefish to fortify Lunga and the Solmons, but in reality, I will completely ignore those areas. Dan is right, in that Rabaul is not important anymore.

Eventually, I will move all my ground troops to Australia, with a few exceptions. The other major advance I plan at some point is a move on the Marianas. This is not possible until I have more CV's so not until late 1943 at this point, but a preliminary step in early 1943 would be taking Wake. This will clear a supply path to the Marianas. Thus, I am prepping the 3rd Marine Div. at Pearl for Wake.

At this point, here are my approximate troops dispositions in terms of Divisions:

Pearl Harbor/Cent Pac: 3rd Marine, 24, 25 Infantry
SW Pac: 1st and 2nd Marines, 27th Inf, Americal,41st Inf
These troops will clear New Hebrides/New Caledonia, then head to the DEI
Australia: 32nd Division (for Port Moresby)
DEI (either there or on way): 6, 7, 8th Australian Divisions, 2nd UK Div, 37,40, and 43rd US Inf. Divisions.

The 8th Australian is about 80% strength. This doesn't include several RCTs and Bdes here and there. I am beginning to pick-up alot of Regt and Bn strength garrisons on Pacific Islands and consolidate them in SW Pacific, as I don't need them anymore to defend those islands.

Looking ahead, there aren't alot of ground reinforcements available. The 9th Australian Division is coming in 2 months, and the 7th US Inf later. I will likely run into a problem with Aussie replacements since I am rebuilding 8th Aus Div, so I will prefer to use US divisions for heavy combat.

[Q-Ball]

Sorry, THIS IS THE CORRECT MAP. For whatever reason, I can't get the map on the last post deleted:

[LoBaron]

Is Sorebaja in 4engine bomber range from Koepang?
Might convince him not to use this great harbour as a forward fleet base. Would help since Batavia is further away
and you could move the sub screen farther to NW.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Is Sorebaja in 4engine bomber range from Koepang?
Might convince him not to use this great harbour as a forward fleet base. Would help since Batavia is further away
and you could move the sub screen farther to NW.

Yes, I have had my eye on that. It's even within P-38 range of Waingapu, which is almost size-6. I recon it constantly, though, and don't see ships in port very often. I think Cuttlefish is too smart to dock ships within 4E range. I might bomb the airstrip anyway, to see if maybe there are planes on the ground awaiting transfer.

[Astarix]

Q-ball,

I don't disagree that the Allies were not prepared for an offensive in 1942. And it is way too easy for the allies to manage one in 1942 in game terms. By the same token, by 1943 if the Japanese have not built up their strength in Burma beyond 5 divisions they deserve to lose and lose badly. It also shows that an attempt by the Japanese to attack India should be very bloody and costly for them.