War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Moderator: Tankerace
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
No disrespect taken at all, hell I probably want to see WPO get a facelift just as much as you guys. Which is why if Graham wants to do the conversion the legal way, barring a few stipulations I'm sold on the idea.
As to Mike Wood I am not sure why. I know that in the coding process for Carrier Force he did interchange some ideas that he did for AE, but my guess is that WPO's in unsuitable. The reason being is much of the code for WPO was made to better reflect ships using spotters or spotting aircraft, having poor rangefinders (think Jutland or HMS Hood fighting the Bismarck), and literrally firing thousands of shells for only a few hits. With the exception of WWI-era British warships, most navies' ships in WW2 used excellent rangefinders that acquired targets much easier, and then there is the reliance on radar, and improved director controlling, something that WPO tries to show that while many of the guns were director controlled, they were still highly inaccurate, moreso than in WW2. The USS Washington of 1926, had she been completed, would have fired more rounds to less effect than the Washington of 1942. Copying over WPO's combat model would have been just as ahistoric as the current model.
That would be my arguement. Certainly some things could have been used, but for the most part WPO's combat model would simply not fit AE. Kind of like replacing a flat tire on your car with a monster truck tire -- sure it's a working tire, but it still doesn't fit. And that's a horrible analogy, but eh.
I was also referring to similar "antiquating" of the air model -- to reflect biplanes that can't hit anything but a stationary ship (think Ostfriesland), plus AI changes, menu changes, Q-ships, Torpedo Boats, and all that other fun stuff. If you imported WPO into that, you would have dreadnought era ships fighting like radar controlled super-battleships. How do I know? That's what they did in the Plan Orange mod before Matrix backed the projected and let Mike Wood work his magic.
As to Mike Wood I am not sure why. I know that in the coding process for Carrier Force he did interchange some ideas that he did for AE, but my guess is that WPO's in unsuitable. The reason being is much of the code for WPO was made to better reflect ships using spotters or spotting aircraft, having poor rangefinders (think Jutland or HMS Hood fighting the Bismarck), and literrally firing thousands of shells for only a few hits. With the exception of WWI-era British warships, most navies' ships in WW2 used excellent rangefinders that acquired targets much easier, and then there is the reliance on radar, and improved director controlling, something that WPO tries to show that while many of the guns were director controlled, they were still highly inaccurate, moreso than in WW2. The USS Washington of 1926, had she been completed, would have fired more rounds to less effect than the Washington of 1942. Copying over WPO's combat model would have been just as ahistoric as the current model.
That would be my arguement. Certainly some things could have been used, but for the most part WPO's combat model would simply not fit AE. Kind of like replacing a flat tire on your car with a monster truck tire -- sure it's a working tire, but it still doesn't fit. And that's a horrible analogy, but eh.
I was also referring to similar "antiquating" of the air model -- to reflect biplanes that can't hit anything but a stationary ship (think Ostfriesland), plus AI changes, menu changes, Q-ships, Torpedo Boats, and all that other fun stuff. If you imported WPO into that, you would have dreadnought era ships fighting like radar controlled super-battleships. How do I know? That's what they did in the Plan Orange mod before Matrix backed the projected and let Mike Wood work his magic.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
That does make a lot of sense, and adds further to my appreciation of the research and work that went into making WPO the great game that, even without a major update in some time, a number of us are still playing.
I know you put your heart and soul into this game, Tankerace, and met no disrespect. Like I and others said, the direction this thread went earlier was regrettable, but at the very least it seems like many of us are understanding each other now.
And at most - well, we'll keep our fingers crossed and see how things develop.
I know you put your heart and soul into this game, Tankerace, and met no disrespect. Like I and others said, the direction this thread went earlier was regrettable, but at the very least it seems like many of us are understanding each other now.
And at most - well, we'll keep our fingers crossed and see how things develop.
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
It's a great pity that WAR PLAN ORANGE will not be updated in the near future,be that short or long term,because it is a superb game.But I still want to use the Admirals Edition Editor to create my Pre-Dreadnought era scenario,as it is far superior to what,I can do with WITP EDITOR X,so it would appear the best option for me would be to,delete all devices,planes,ship classes,ships from WITP AE and input all relevent info relating to WW1 devices etc,all from scratch I may add,I'm not using anyone elses art or data. It will take along time to do this,but I have all the necessary reference books at my disposal,so I will just have to get on with it,my old ship's are about to time travel[8D]
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
By the way I have uninstalled WAR PLAN ORANGE from my system,it frees up 1.5 gb of space,not that I'm short of space,it's just if it does get an face lift in the future then I will reinstall it but not untill then,tata the noo[:(]
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Hi Tankerace,
Thanks for the reply. I am interested in converting the mod I was working on (War in the West 1914) from WPO to AE, simply because there are more slots in the device, ship, etc. files. Given that I can't go in and change the code as was done for WPO, do you think that it would be possible to achieve a similar effect by giving a proportional reduction in accuracy and range (reperesenting range of effective engagement rather than just range of possible hits)?
At this point I'm not too concerned with the air model.
If I have the time, I would really like to make parallel mods (one of each game), but like you I am limited by commitments to other areas of my life.
Dave
Thanks for the reply. I am interested in converting the mod I was working on (War in the West 1914) from WPO to AE, simply because there are more slots in the device, ship, etc. files. Given that I can't go in and change the code as was done for WPO, do you think that it would be possible to achieve a similar effect by giving a proportional reduction in accuracy and range (reperesenting range of effective engagement rather than just range of possible hits)?
At this point I'm not too concerned with the air model.
If I have the time, I would really like to make parallel mods (one of each game), but like you I am limited by commitments to other areas of my life.
Dave
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Graham -- sorry to hear you uninstalled the game, but that's your choice -- if the facelift is that important to you I offered a deal for you to get it done. That's your choice, so all I can say is best of luck in your endeavors.
Dave -- you can compensate a bit in the device editor, but the problem with that is that you'll get whacked out device values -- for instance if you make torpedoes "less accurate" in the game it will show they have low, ahistoric speeds. It's a tradeoff as to what you want to do, funky values or correct data.
You can get some of the effect of the code, but only a fraction of it.
Dave -- you can compensate a bit in the device editor, but the problem with that is that you'll get whacked out device values -- for instance if you make torpedoes "less accurate" in the game it will show they have low, ahistoric speeds. It's a tradeoff as to what you want to do, funky values or correct data.
You can get some of the effect of the code, but only a fraction of it.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Ok here is what is going to happen,WPO AE is dead[:(]
But I will make my own scenario,using WITP X for War Plan Orange WW1,for all WPO gamers to use if they so wish,all with updated art work I may add.[;)]
Plus I will do the same version but using the WITP AE Editor,for my own personal use only.[8D]
I think part of the problem with WPO and other Matrix niche games in not geting updated, is the fact you get all updates done for free,and they ain't gonna do that if they only sell 2 or 3 hundred copies,it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,well why don't Matrix charge for these upgrades,say 10% of the value of the product in the first place.That way it might make the designers improve and expand on there games,and not let them wither and die.[:)]
But I will make my own scenario,using WITP X for War Plan Orange WW1,for all WPO gamers to use if they so wish,all with updated art work I may add.[;)]
Plus I will do the same version but using the WITP AE Editor,for my own personal use only.[8D]
I think part of the problem with WPO and other Matrix niche games in not geting updated, is the fact you get all updates done for free,and they ain't gonna do that if they only sell 2 or 3 hundred copies,it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,well why don't Matrix charge for these upgrades,say 10% of the value of the product in the first place.That way it might make the designers improve and expand on there games,and not let them wither and die.[:)]
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,
You got that right Graham!
Am I the only one who feels insulted in that for ages we have been asking for at the very least some information about future plans for this game, only to be totally ignored, but when they feel their bank account threatened we suddenly have all the attention in the world?
I own four Matrix games (which are not cheap, as you all know), but I seem to have lost any desire to add a fifth title to my collection. [:-]
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
ORIGINAL: tex
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,
You got that right Graham!
Am I the only one who feels insulted in that for ages we have been asking for at the very least some information about future plans for this game, only to be totally ignored, but when they feel their bank account threatened we suddenly have all the attention in the world?
I own four Matrix games (which are not cheap, as you all know), but I seem to have lost any desire to add a fifth title to my collection. [:-]
Well I unfortuately have 12 Matrix titles all within 1 year,I'm going to see an shrink to get my head looked at,Tankerace say's that Matrix supports WPO,yes and pigs really do fly,when was the last time anyone from Matrix last made any comments on this forum ?to put it mildly they are extracting the urine from us,and I'm sick of it[:@]
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
ORIGINAL: tex
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,
You got that right Graham!
Am I the only one who feels insulted in that for ages we have been asking for at the very least some information about future plans for this game, only to be totally ignored, but when they feel their bank account threatened we suddenly have all the attention in the world?
I own four Matrix games (which are not cheap, as you all know), but I seem to have lost any desire to add a fifth title to my collection. [:-]
Well I unfortuately have 12 Matrix titles all within 1 year,I'm going to see an shrink to get my head looked at,Tankerace say's that Matrix supports WPO,yes and pigs really do fly,when was the last time anyone from Matrix last made any comments on this forum ?to put it mildly they are extracting the urine from us,and I'm sick of it[:@]
I've asked this question but you nor anyone else has answered it, so I will ask again. I hardcore supported WPO for its first three years of existence -- new patches, new updates, new units, scenario and AI tweaks, etc.
The game is now four years old. How much longer should I keep adding free stuff to the game? six years? eight? ten? Most "big name" companies stop after a year.
How much longer should I keep adding new content -- not fixes, because the game works as I origininally intended it in 2005 (keep in mind in two weeks it will be 2010!)? You guys claim that WPO has a lack of support but yet haven't stepped back and realized that this game is old! That doesn't mean it isn't fun, but the game came out four years ago.
As to finances and I come rushing in, I already explained it isn't about the money -- I don't even make that much from WPO these days. It's about legal issues and copyright infringement. I gave Graham a way to mate the two games, I offered to support him, I even offered him a way to make a few bucks into the bargain. He said no. That's not my fault or my problem then. If one of you other enterprising forum members wants to work on a conversion shoot me an email and we'll start the ball rolling today.
But the sad thing is I have a life too, and I'm doing other things, and while I would love to expand WPO I don't have the time.
So I ask the question again -- after four years, how long should I keep adding free stuff to the game? Five? Seven? Ten? Should WPO Patch 1.9x be released in 2014 to keep pace with AE II or something?
If you -- any of you, want to see a WPO AE happen that bad then I'll make you the same deal I did for Graham who turned it down. Get in touch with me if you're serious, then we'll clear it with Matrix, 2by3, me, and AE, and then you can work to your hearts content adding whatever new content you want under my supervision (i.e. you still have to clear things through me, which for the most part I'll rubber stamp if its a good idea). We'll even see if we can't get you some royalties for the effort.
So as I see it, the ball is in your guys' court now. This is how a lot of expansions happen -- avid gamers and forum members working on the project. Hell, it's how AE started. Now is your guys' chance. I've given you the option, what do you say?
I'm sorry if you feel WPO is unsupported, but seriously guys it has been four years. How much longer should I add free stuff -- we aren't even talking bugfixes here. You guys simply want the game updated to AE standards. If anything, following AE's progress, WPO:AE would be a new, standalone game not a patch or an expansion.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
I think part of the problem with WPO and other Matrix niche games in not geting updated, is the fact you get all updates done for free,and they ain't gonna do that if they only sell 2 or 3 hundred copies,it all boils down to finance in the end,money makes the world go round,well why don't Matrix charge for these upgrades,say 10% of the value of the product in the first place.That way it might make the designers improve and expand on there games,and not let them wither and die.
I think Matrix should charge for upgrades,not bug fixes but game enhancements ?I think 10% is a fair estimate,I know of no other place where you get free updates,this is a stupid Idea,as for me making it a business,no thanks I already have a successful Plumbing & Heating business.But what I do offer is to do all art work,for Ships & Aircraft[8D]
Justin, I like alot of others here are glad you are even showing an interest in what us gamers would like,why not do a remake like WITP AE it is after all a new standalone game?
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
The truth is I want to do one, I really, really, really, (did I mention really?) do. But for the next six months I'm writing a master's thesis. Then I'm getting married. Then I might be moving to start a doctoral program.
If I could start such a project, it would be until August before I could. Not finish, but actually start. Then assume that it took the same timeline as the original game to make, you wouldn't see it until November of 2011. Now factor in graduate school is more time consuming and that timeline will be even longer.
I could do one, but it would have to be in the future. For the next seven months I just simply will not have the time. That's not economics or me not caring about you guys, that's just the simple realities of life. And assuming that Matrix, 2by3, and the AE team greenlit the project. And such a thing would have to be a new, standalone game because the AE guys would need to be compensated, and since WitP owners had to buy a whole new game, it isn't fair if such a thing came just in expansion form for WPO owners.
I have never ruled out an AE update, far from it. But I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the time to do it now, or at least for seven months. After that, well, if everyone else approves I don't mind giving it a shot.
If I could start such a project, it would be until August before I could. Not finish, but actually start. Then assume that it took the same timeline as the original game to make, you wouldn't see it until November of 2011. Now factor in graduate school is more time consuming and that timeline will be even longer.
I could do one, but it would have to be in the future. For the next seven months I just simply will not have the time. That's not economics or me not caring about you guys, that's just the simple realities of life. And assuming that Matrix, 2by3, and the AE team greenlit the project. And such a thing would have to be a new, standalone game because the AE guys would need to be compensated, and since WitP owners had to buy a whole new game, it isn't fair if such a thing came just in expansion form for WPO owners.
I have never ruled out an AE update, far from it. But I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the time to do it now, or at least for seven months. After that, well, if everyone else approves I don't mind giving it a shot.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Fantastic I would really love to see an WAR PLAN ORANGE AE,but maybe covering an earlier period a what if WW1 for example,I know you are very busy,and other life commitments keep getting in the way,but even if there was a slight chance of it happening,sometime in the future,and it's not a deffinate no! I'm sure I speak for all the gamers here even waiting another 2 or 3 years,what the hell I'm sure it would be more than worth the wait.[;)]
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Possible new German WW1 Fighter,AEG-C1V how's that for a starter[8D]
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Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Well for what its worth Tankerace I think the work you did on this game was outstanding thanks for making it and I am enjoying it greatly. Even if it never sees another patch due to work and life I'm happy with what I got and if you find the time to make another patch great if not no worries [:)]
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
I can only say given the amount of time AE took to do what you are asking Tankerace to do is a huge undertaking and it sounds like he is willing but just not now as he has some RL stuff to take care of !!!.
I am no coder but the games are very very different (p.s. I own and played WPO extensively as well). I very much doubt it will work as you wanted with the AE exe even in your private mod - so many things have changed
I am no coder but the games are very very different (p.s. I own and played WPO extensively as well). I very much doubt it will work as you wanted with the AE exe even in your private mod - so many things have changed
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
Ok im a little confused, hellfirejet I thought you wanted to make a dreadnought game using the WITP AE engine. Tankerace said he would oversee the project as long as all the partys that own the rights allow you to do this, Im sure they would even have some of their guys help you out since you stated yourself you didnt know anything about coding. The thing that slowed WPO 1.3 was the artwork, from what I remeber reading. However you seem to excel in the artwork deparment. The thing I dont understand is why would you turn down an offer, I mean it is what you wanted right?
- hellfirejet
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
- Location: Scotland
RE: War Plan Orange Admirals Edition
pmn25,I do want to make WW1 Dreadnoughts using the Admirals Edition Editor,but as it stands it needs a great deal of recoding to make it all work,while WAR PLAN ORANGE & WAR IN THE PACIFIC used to be completely compatible,somewhere along the line,instead of the programmers wanting to keep it that way,they decided in there wisdom it was better that WW2 & WW1 should be kept seperate Pre-Dreadnoughts,Armoured cruiser's etc should be blocked,as far as I understand it Tankerace, did not want War Plan Orange scenario's being used in WITP,he wanted it so that you must have a copy of WAR PLAN ORANGE.Legal copy right and all that political stuff.I don't see why they could not just agree to make it all compatible,so that everybody could create scenario's dating from 1880-1950.
Regards,
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
Graham.
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller