'stuffing' the border

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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composer99
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by composer99 »

USSR DoW on Japan is much higher USE cost than -7 (Ja). I believe it's -17 or -18 (i.e. you lose a chit and stand a good chance to lose another). Japan DOW on USSR is 7 (Ja). Also, a Japan-USSR non-aggression pact is a US entry action, but it penalizes Japan no matter who triggers it.

While the USSR and Japan fought two limited border wars in the '30s (one of which was shortly before the start of the war in Europe), there is no reason in WiF why they must fight a limited war in lieu of a full-scale war (although there is no reason why a full-scale war between USSR-Japan must needs be a total war, ending with complete victory or defeat, either).
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Skanvak »

there is no reason in WiF why they must fight a limited war in lieu of a full-scale war


Potential abuse by the USSR as far as I understand the debate on stuffing. We can have an infinite debate on the political reason for waging a pseudo full war against Japan, but it did not happened. I remember that limited war was mandatory between Japan and China in one version of WiF.

The point is that Stalin cannot turn its country in a production dynamo or call reserve without political consequences. So as long as USSR is not at war with Germany, I feel it wrong for USSR to go to full war against Japan (limited ok). Once USSR is at war with Germany, well I agree with you, nothing prevent full-scale war betwen Japan and USSR.

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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Breunor »

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
there is no reason in WiF why they must fight a limited war in lieu of a full-scale war


Potential abuse by the USSR as far as I understand the debate on stuffing. We can have an infinite debate on the political reason for waging a pseudo full war against Japan, but it did not happened. I remember that limited war was mandatory between Japan and China in one version of WiF.

The point is that Stalin cannot turn its country in a production dynamo or call reserve without political consequences. So as long as USSR is not at war with Germany, I feel it wrong for USSR to go to full war against Japan (limited ok). Once USSR is at war with Germany, well I agree with you, nothing prevent full-scale war betwen Japan and USSR.

I promised not to talk about stuffing any more and I won't. However, the ability of the USSR to get a full war benefit by having a limited war with Japan may indeed be an exploit. It clearly has been discussed for years.

Indeed, these have been vetted at tournaments, discussed in forums, written in articles (meeting my 'proof' of an abuse), and ultimately had rules' adjustments applied.

Soviet 'tricks' included the 'Denmark gambit' which was nasty until the rule changed so that the USSR moving into Denmark allows Germany to break the pact. At points there were games with Soviet units in France in 1940. Real bad abuses came form the USSR declaring war on Japan, building MiL, fighting Japan, getting lend-lease to replace losses so that they are still at full strength when Germany hits, and taking full actions. The worst part was the USSR would never 'win' by enough to let Japan out of the war.

The Denmark abuse was closed, the lend-lease abuse was closed; optional surrender rules let Japan stop the war at any time.

Whether it is still too good a strategy for the USSR remains an open question, it may be. These can be abuses whether the USSR uses a forward or a rear defense. Personally I think this is potentially a much greater abuse than a forward defense.


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Breunor
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: composer99

USSR DoW on Japan is much higher USE cost than -7 (Ja). I believe it's -17 or -18 (i.e. you lose a chit and stand a good chance to lose another). Japan DOW on USSR is 7 (Ja). Also, a Japan-USSR non-aggression pact is a US entry action, but it penalizes Japan no matter who triggers it.

While the USSR and Japan fought two limited border wars in the '30s (one of which was shortly before the start of the war in Europe), there is no reason in WiF why they must fight a limited war in lieu of a full-scale war (although there is no reason why a full-scale war between USSR-Japan must needs be a total war, ending with complete victory or defeat, either).
My goof - yes 17. Still a very acceptable cost/benefit ratio.
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Potential abuse by the USSR as far as I understand the debate on stuffing. We can have an infinite debate on the political reason for waging a pseudo full war against Japan, but it did not happened.
If you want the game to replicate everything that happened - why bother playing? We know what happened.
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Breunor »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Potential abuse by the USSR as far as I understand the debate on stuffing. We can have an infinite debate on the political reason for waging a pseudo full war against Japan, but it did not happened.
If you want the game to replicate everything that happened - why bother playing? We know what happened.


I think what Skavnak is saying that some people (like me) view that a war by the USSR on Japan that is a 'mini' war but gives the USSR full at war benefits is an exploit. If people are basing their 'stuffing breaks the game' argument on this, it is relevant. Yes, it is overpowered (my opinion) - but it isn't stuffing that is broken, it is this strategy that overpowered so we ought to get to the heart of the matter.

I think this point is 'on-topic' for this discussion.

Good gaming,

Breunor
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by paulderynck »

Breunor,

There is no way for the game to know what kind of a war you are going to fight when you make a DoW. Would you like to take a crack at writing the rule about how a power prosecutes a limited war and what the ramifications are for doing so? Oh, and don't forget to lower the US Entry cost while your at it. (Hey! maybe that's why I thought it was 7 instead of 17 - I only wanted a limited war!) [;)]

Yes it's an exploit, like combining action limits between cooperating major powers, but not an abuse. It comes with pros and cons. Plus as the game develops, who says it will stay a limited war? It takes two to party.

There was an old rule in previous versions called "Lapse of War" or something like that. But Harry (who BTW also knows the game is not broken) removed it.



Paul
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by darune »

I only think one person in here said the game was broken. It would take a lot more than the ability of the USSR to 'stuff' to say that the game is broken.

I have to say im being swayed back and forth on this subject.

I think there have been many good arguments so far about the reasons as to why we are not seeing more 'stuffing' going on and ill try to summerize as i see them.

1. 42 barb. is the mostly widespread so why bother ? when a backward defence can also be good against 41 barb and it is what you want to setup for 42 barb. anyway
2. Not regarded as a good strategy (mistakenly or not), it requires some calculation to realize the percentage of success.
3. USSR players want to get in the game and not just feel they have their turn in the production phase.
4. Pretty big entry hit by DOW on italy (percieved as big at least), this will only really be needed in ~20% of the times to build milits and get reserves.

So i speculate, if the metagame evolved into GE/italy prefering 41 barb. then if the 'stuff' would be more widely used we would go back to 42 barb.

No one still haven't tried to come up with an answer of how it much it changes the OPs ananlysis if GE goes yugoslavia, and aligns rumania and hungary on the first turn. Which seems to me at least as a good play if you are doing 41 barb.
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Skanvak »

If you want the game to replicate everything that happened - why bother playing? We know what happened.


This is specious and off topic. I could take offense of such answer.

The WiF Diplomatic model does not allow people to be free to go far from history. The whole Pact thing is about that. So letting USSR go to full war against Japan before 1942 does not fit in the WiF diplomatic setting (as do free German DoW on Spain...).

Contrary to what you think, I would like a far more open diplomatic game.
There is no way for the game to know what kind of a war you are going to fight when you make a DoW. Would you like to take a crack at writing the rule about how a power prosecutes a limited war and what the ramifications are for doing so?


Once I will be sure that my model will be tested (and play some game again), I will. You can look at Totaler Krieg that have a lot of non-historical strategic choice that are not present in WiF at all (like hilter assassination plot, limited war between Turkey and USSR...). They have a limit war / Total war distinction for each country.

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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by composer99 »

I'm not sure how it can be argued that USSR is getting a full war benefit for engaging in a limited war against Japan in WiF. A USSR-Japan war is only as limited as both parties let it be. If the USSR declares war on Japan without much intention of doing anything (i.e. just to enhance a border stuff), the Japanese can and should make them pay (preferably by taking Vlad and 2-3 resources).
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Zorachus99 »

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
The rule is broken. Germany cannot go historically into USSR without some crazy gaminess, unless the USSR decides to let them.

I don't recall saying the game is broken... perhaps I did while not thinking a lot about it. Several people did seize on that wording...

When I find a group that agrees that '41 barb should be one of the possible strategies Germany can focus on, my issue will be resolved.

The irony is with RAW you are channeled into Spain/Gib, Sealion, or Sitzing until '42 or later. It requires good USSR strategy, but quite doable. If I were the rear-end of a donkey you might see a stuff from me; but I try to stay out of the equine family.[:)]

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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by WarHunter »

Zorachus99 said,
I don't recall saying the game is broken... perhaps I did while not thinking a lot about it.
Post #: 140 IMO Barb is broken. IMO game is broken.
Its one of those hard to forget quotes, when you don't think the game is broken.

Though i don't agree an option was needed. (not broken) I do agree that Steve's option is the best way to resolve this topic. Only when the game is released and being played by thousands of people, will we see the fruits created. 
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Breunor »

I don't totally disagree with you, coomposer99.  I guess it is a matter of degree.  I think it comes down to EXACTLY what we are talking about and what rules we play.
 
For instance, if the USSR has rolled over Japan but intentionally doesn't control one of the resources (assuming they are using option 50), even though it is well within the USSR ‘s power to do so, and then uses the advantages of being at war (full impulse choice, can build MIL, etc.) then this appears to be an exploit.  That is, we all know that the USSR ‘really’ controls the resource even though they haven’t moved into the hex.  To me it is similar to the old exploit of Germany not taking Paris until after being in Spain. 
 
We now have optional rules allowing either player to surrender at any time.  Not everyone plays with all of these optionals so how powerful the potential exploit is and also depends on rule choice.  Indeed I suspect most people played with option 50 but we can’t be sure everyone does. 
 
Of course, I agree with you a 'real' limited war is not an exploit.  Indeed, we need to have the ability for the USSR to attack Japan if, say, they strip their defenses on the Soviet border to make stronger attacks in China or in the Pacific.  Clearly the USSR can be hurt by a tough war in Asia.  Indeed, we have to allow the USSR to fight a ‘real’ war with Japan in any case; it is an important strategic option.
 
So, philosophically, I think it is an 'exploit' if a strategy or tactic is pursued that wasn't the intent of the game designer, especially when it exploits wording of a rule. My view is that some of these 'limited wars' sometimes give the USSR more benefit than they were intended to get.  The problem is that sometimes the war works out as it should, sometimes they get extra benefit.  It can be hard to make rules to cover all potential situations.
 
Fundamentally, my position is that a war between Japan and the USSR should hurt the USSR militarily to the extent of losses suffered; it should not improve their position in the west or their mobility between the fronts or the forces available to fight in the west. 
 
Paul, I don’t have an easy fix to the exploit, but nonetheless, I think it is a problem, abuse, exploit, whatever you want to name it.  Alas, rule writing is not a strong suit of mine.  But saying that I’m not allowed to have this opinion because I can’t fix the exploit isn’t fair.  We house rule it away because we think it is overpowered in my group. As I said before, this issue has been discussed for years and many people think it is overpowering - many do not.  Such is the nature of WIFFE.   
 
One non-original idea is to play that a Japan/USSR pact exists at the start of the game, an extremely common house rule.  I don’t think it is the best solution, it limits options to all players, and it does allow the Soviets more of a free hand in the West, but there is some justification for it (given that there was a cease-fire over the Khalkin Gal fighting around Sept 16 or so). 
 
I think that ‘fixing’ it properly will be hard; as was said above, WIFFE is game in where squeezing somewhere has something pop up elsewhere.  The optional allowing Japan to surrender at any time helps, it gets rid of the issue of the USSR intentionally avoiding a resource hex.  (Anyone relying on MIL in their stuffing strategy sees them disappear ....)   But I still think the USSR gets too much by a gratuitous war and that a -17 US entry hit isn’t going to cover the USSR’s benefit.  However, raising the US entry hit isn’t the answer either, because we need to allow a ‘real’ war where the USSR attacks Japan.
 
I’m a little surprised by the reaction to this view.  After all, we have a thread about the game being ‘broken’ by Soviet a forward defense.  (I know some have said ‘nobody is saying the game is broken’ – sorry, I don’t read it that way). 
 
And I’m actually agreeing!  A forward defense may be too strong IF the Soviets can be at full war and build all of their MIL, can move with full land impulses, etc.  My view is that the forward defense is SUPPOSED to be limited by taking combined impulses while neutral.  (I say that because I remember when it was analyzed in some details years ago that was the assumption being made and because of my general principal here about the Eastern war shouldn’t help the Soviet position in the west.)
 
However, my view is that forward defense works fine but the problem is that an ongoing war with Japan is too beneficial and that USSR players are getting unfair and unintended benefits.  And I think that people are seeing this as aiding a forward defense, that it just makes the Soviets too strong whether they use a forward or a rear defense.  How well does the forward defense work, if, say, we imposed a rule that did force the USSR only to take combined impulses and make builds as if neutral (or as I said starts with the pact in place, which should be beneficial since the Pacific needs a smaller garrison)? 
 
Now, I’m sure there are people who think the mechanic is working fine, and that his isn’t an exploit or abuse.  Allowing Japan to surrender at any time should help.  Whether it is enough is probably going to be an open question for the WIFFE community for some time. 
 
Nonetheless, I thought the idea of this thread was to try to make WIFFE or computer WIFFE better because of a perceived abuse.  I think people are concentrating on the wrong abuse!  For instance, I think starting with a Soviet-Japanese pact in place, is better for the game than saying Germany can break the pact any time they want.  Isn't the point of this forum to discuss these issues?
 
 
Good gaming,
 
Breunor
 
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Neilster »

Have we had to go to large text because everyone's eyesight is failing from the long wait for MWiF? [:D]

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Breunor
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Breunor »

Well, if you knew my age .....
[:)]


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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Zorachus99 »

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Zorachus99 said,
I don't recall saying the game is broken... perhaps I did while not thinking a lot about it.
Post #: 140 IMO Barb is broken. IMO game is broken.
Its one of those hard to forget quotes, when you don't think the game is broken.

Though i don't agree an option was needed. (not broken) I do agree that Steve's option is the best way to resolve this topic. Only when the game is released and being played by thousands of people, will we see the fruits created. 

I agree, a few posts were too impassioned regarding the subject.

I wonder how many people think Barb should be allowed? The speculation regarding the '41 blowout is speculation for me ATM. There are many key places in USSR that allow a comeback.

For now I think I'll stop playing Axis to add perspective, not to mention defending USSR is quite a bit of fun. I have a different perspective I admit, from not playing WifCon and such, but have taken lessions back from Wif 5.

It all makes for bizarre rules discussions. The newbies have it easy, compared to those of us who have gotten 4-5 official revisions since discovering the game.
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Zorachus99 said,
I don't recall saying the game is broken... perhaps I did while not thinking a lot about it.
Post #: 140 IMO Barb is broken. IMO game is broken.
Its one of those hard to forget quotes, when you don't think the game is broken.

Though i don't agree an option was needed. (not broken) I do agree that Steve's option is the best way to resolve this topic. Only when the game is released and being played by thousands of people, will we see the fruits created. 

I agree, a few posts were too impassioned regarding the subject.

I wonder how many people think Barb should be allowed? The speculation regarding the '41 blowout is speculation for me ATM. There are many key places in USSR that allow a comeback.

For now I think I'll stop playing Axis to add perspective, not to mention defending USSR is quite a bit of fun. I have a different perspective I admit, from not playing WifCon and such, but have taken lessions back from Wif 5.

It all makes for bizarre rules discussions. The newbies have it easy, compared to those of us who have gotten 4-5 official revisions since discovering the game.
So there is money to be made by those who have devoted their lives to this game?[&:] [:D]
Steve

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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by WIF_Killzone »

I am a little confused. I havn't played with the updated rules, in fact it's been 10 years since I played (my god how have I survived). Anyways, am I hearing correctly that if you attack a unit and they survive, they get stronger? Under what conditions?
 
How does that model reality when there is sure to be a loss of men from the attack. Assuming they get re-inforced for losses of men and equipment from the attack (perhaps with green troops or conscripts), how do they become a better corps from the experience? Maybe, just from the experience itself? Like I said I'm confused.
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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Breunor
Now, I’m sure there are people who think the mechanic is working fine, and that his isn’t an exploit or abuse.  Allowing Japan to surrender at any time should help.  Whether it is enough is probably going to be an open question for the WIFFE community for some time. 
I'm still trying to figure out the rationale for how this helps against an all-out Stuff strategy. I agree it ends the abuse of a successful "non-limited" Russian war on Japan accompanied by Russia refusing to walk into that last undefended Manchurian resource.

But the idea of the all-out Stuff strategy is for Russia to DoW Japan and then to "hunker down". They will eventually lose all four Siberian resources. They want to have actually less forces committed in the Far East then they start there with. So now, after taking advantage of all this, Japan must surrender to Russia and give all that up, just so the Russian Militia wil go poof ??? It's hard to imagine in a multi-player game, what self-respecting Japanese player would be willing to "take one for the gipper (Fuhrer)". In a 2-player game... maybe, but setting up a situation where Japan must suffer to allow Germany a 41 Barb seems a convoluted solution to me.

This may be why some other posters are saying it is Italy that Russia needs to DoW, for an all-out Stuff.

ORIGINAL: Breunor
Nonetheless, I thought the idea of this thread was to try to make WIFFE or computer WIFFE better because of a perceived abuse.  I think people are concentrating on the wrong abuse!  For instance, I think starting with a Soviet-Japanese pact in place, is better for the game than saying Germany can break the pact any time they want. 
I disagree. There have been lots of suggestions for a house rule to allow the game to start with a USSR-JP pact in place. Usually the deal involves some trade of resources/BPs.

We tried this once and found it was wonderful for Russia - not great for Japan, and horrid for the Axis overall. The deal was an oil for Japan a turn and 2
resources for the USSR a turn (or maybe a BP, I can't recall).

But with a pact in place between Russia and Japan, Russia immediately attacked Persia and although Japan sent peacekeepers and got a couple oil for one turn, as soon as Tehran fell, the Japanese got teleported out.

With the extra goodies, Russia had enough production to stuff with no difficulty.


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RE: 'stuffing' the border

Post by Breunor »

Paul,

Yeah, I think your last post is correct. The 'surrender' really only stops the 'I intentionally don' take the resource' issue which is clearly an exploit, otherwise you give up a LOT. The pact may well help the USSR more than Japan, I know a lot of people are on opposite sides here. The USSR can take Persia and Iraq, Japan gets a free hand in China, it can be complex.

A real 'fix', if needed, I think would have to be a lot harder. As I said, it also isn't good gaming, it is more interesting to have the tension (At least my opinion.)

Good gaming,

Breunor
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