China combat for the AFBs

[erstad]

Thought I'd share this one

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 162973 troops, 1153 guns, 713 vehicles, Assault Value = 5177

Defending force 105091 troops, 443 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3143

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1766

Allied adjusted defense: 8311

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
20256 casualties reported
Squads: 76 destroyed, 933 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 969 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 133 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 147 (2 destroyed, 145 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6383 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 294 disabled
Non Combat: 38 destroyed, 418 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

[Swenslim]

Yep.. I agree...everything is not so bad for China..they just need to find right places for defence. In my PBEM game China 41000 troops attacked my 36000 in forest with AV 1600 to my 1200 , I retreated and lost 11 000 mostly destroyed and china 4000 mostly disabled.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: erstad

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 162973 troops, 1153 guns, 713 vehicles, Assault Value = 5177

Defending force 105091 troops, 443 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3143

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1766

Allied adjusted defense: 8311

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
20256 casualties reported
Squads: 76 destroyed, 933 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 969 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 133 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 147 (2 destroyed, 145 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6383 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 294 disabled
Non Combat: 38 destroyed, 418 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Considering the length of time and expenditure of effort it takes the Chinese to build a level 6 fort, I'd call reducing it by one level in one day with the loss of only 8 engineer squads a Japanese victory. If the engineers were out front blowing obstacles and bunkers their casualties should have been among the highest in the assault force. And why are all those "non-combat" forces getting butchered? The 1001st Clerk/Typist Regiment must have been wiped out launching a "Banzai Attack" with fountain pens and file folders. [:D]

[khyberbill]

How many days bombardment preceeded this attack? Most of the Japanese attacks against me were preceeded by several days if not weeks of bombardment from the air and the ground, although it is the ground that does the most damage. Mass ir attacks for several days with Sallys/Sonias/Lillys etc have tended to highly disrupt the troops.

[Canoerebel]

We already knew this, erstad. Chinese troops behind good forts can hold their own....as long as the Japanese don't bring a artillery death star, strategic bomb your industry, and destroy all your supplies so that you can't maintain your army.

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: erstad

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 162973 troops, 1153 guns, 713 vehicles, Assault Value = 5177

Defending force 105091 troops, 443 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3143

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1766

Allied adjusted defense: 8311

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
20256 casualties reported
Squads: 76 destroyed, 933 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 969 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 133 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 147 (2 destroyed, 145 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6383 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 294 disabled
Non Combat: 38 destroyed, 418 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Considering the length of time and expenditure of effort it takes the Chinese to build a level 6 fort, I'd call reducing it by one level in one day with the loss of only 8 engineer squads a Japanese victory. If the engineers were out front blowing obstacles and bunkers their casualties should have been among the highest in the assault force. And why are all those "non-combat" forces getting butchered? The 1001st Clerk/Typist Regiment must have been wiped out launching a "Banzai Attack" with fountain pens and file folders. [:D]

Actually engineer losses were 141 squads. What makes people say that land combat model is unrealistic is the fact that they only look at squads destroyed, ignoring disabled ones. Both disabled and destroyed are out of the war for a long time. I am not saying the system is perfect either, but this result erstad posted looks really good to me - 20256 vs 6383 casualties.

The only thing I would like to know is the ratio of japanese engineer unit compared to the rest of their forces, so then we could see if they took proportionally more losses or not.

[Canoerebel]

No, Djordje, what makes people say that China is broken is:

1.  Chinese units in the open take massively disproportionate losses.
2.  So the Allied player MUST get the Chinese behind fortifications.
3.  The Japanese player can easily nullify fortifications by:
    a)  employing massed artillery that can inflict thousands (that's not an exaggeration) of casualties every single day for weeks, months, years against the well-entrenched Chinese, reducing those well-entrenched Chinese to ghost forces with zero- or single-digit AVs in a matter of days or weeks.
    b)  strategic bombing that will wipe out Chinese industry and supplies in a matter of months, making sure that the Chinese can't build forts, repair damaged airfields, replace damaged aircraft, or replace disrupted/disorganized troops.

In my game the Chinese were solidly entrenched behind good forts at Chengchow, an important city on my main line of resistance.  The Japanese attacked in good numbers and were soundly defeated.  The Japanese bombed the city out of existence and still my men were holding as were the fortifications.  It was clear that the Japanese weren't going to break through Chengchow.  Then my opponent brought in 17 artillery units from Manchuria.  Within about a week, all those 200 to 300 AV Chinese units were down to 20 AV.  Chengchow fell.  When Chengchow falls, the Chinese also lose Nanyang and Loyang.  Then the Japanese can concentrate on Sian and do the same thing.  Then the Japanese can waltz right over to Chungking and do the same thing.

That's why the model in China is broken.  What makes it frustrating is that there is NOTHING the Allies can do to stop it.  A good player can delay it, but it is NOT within his power to stop it.  The only thing that can stop an aggressive Japanese player is good House Rules or self-imposed rules to keep China in the game.

[SuluSea]

I actually had two good days out of the past three in the China theatre. Even a blind squirrel finds a few nuts. The japanese have lots of power at and around Sian and at Changsha which allowed me to do this but I'll take them any way I can get them.
 
Ground combat at Changteh (81,50)
 
Allied Deliberate attack
 
Attacking force 48223 troops, 265 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1659
 
Defending force 34322 troops, 264 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 878
 
Allied adjusted assault: 2711
 
Japanese adjusted defense: 745
 
Allied assault odds: 3 to 1
 
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker:
 
Japanese ground losses:
      11565 casualties reported
         Squads: 303 destroyed, 12 disabled
         Non Combat: 355 destroyed, 31 disabled
         Engineers: 13 destroyed, 9 disabled
      Guns lost 28 (19 destroyed, 9 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 17 (6 destroyed, 11 disabled)
      Units retreated 3
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      4240 casualties reported
         Squads: 5 destroyed, 171 disabled
         Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 213 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
 
 
Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!
 
Assaulting units:...
    87th Chinese Corps...
    44th Chinese Corps...
    53rd Chinese Corps...
    94th Chinese Corps...
    1st Chinese Cavalry Corps...
    7th Artillery Regiment...
    20th Group Army...
    33rd Group Army...
    56th AT Gun Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
    40th Division...
    39th Division...
    58th Division...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Liuchow (74,55)
 
Allied Deliberate attack
 
Attacking force 31679 troops, 168 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1065
 
Defending force 9913 troops, 92 guns, 57 vehicles, Assault Value = 293
 
Allied adjusted assault: 537
 
Japanese adjusted defense: 181
 
Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)
 
Allied forces CAPTURE Liuchow !!!
 
Combat modifiers
Defender: experience(-)
Attacker:
 
Japanese ground losses:
      3957 casualties reported
         Squads: 67 destroyed, 74 disabled
         Non Combat: 127 destroyed, 71 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
      Guns lost 34 (33 destroyed, 1 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 36 (32 destroyed, 4 disabled)
      Units retreated 5
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      923 casualties reported
         Squads: 2 destroyed, 77 disabled
         Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 43 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
      Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
 
 
Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!
 
Assaulting units:...
    63rd Chinese Corps...
    65th Chinese Corps...
    46th Chinese Corps...
    2nd Prov Chinese Cavalry Division...
    4th War Area ...
...
Defending units:...
    1st Ind.Inf.Group ...
    102nd Infantry Regiment...
    51st Recon Regiment...
    5th RF Gun Battalion...
    20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion...
 

[EUBanana]

Japanese artillery is inflicting 3000 casualties a day to me at Loyang, and it has been doing this for weeks. The Chinese are literally evaporating under the bombardment.

Same sort of thing is on the verge of happening in Burma I think, though not quite so drastic.

[aztez]

This combat is from my vs erstad so I willl add some information since this is very misleading.

First there was 2 days of bombardment before this. We have quite a few HR in place here.

As Mike Scholl stated it takes ages to build up forts in china to level 6 so I take this as an japanese victory.

Another thing is that even if chinese disable japanese troops they recover quite fast. This is not the case when talking about chinese units.

Also this is just 1 isolated battle where chinese managed to do damage. Rest of the battles 99% has been far far far worse for allies.

I do agree with 100% Canoerebel and others who have reported.

I have posted my views regarding the chinese overall situation in the AAR and I wohn't go into details here since the PBEM is ongoing.

One for sure though china front needs a lot of sorting out...