Best Matrix ACW game

[Fallschirmjager]

Once Matrix has it's annual Holiday sale I am going to look into a one of their American Civil War games. However I am not sure which one. So I am looking for opinion on which is the better one among them.
Whatever gets the best response is the one I will buy.

[JudgeDredd]

As always depends on what you're looking for.

At the strategic level
1. American Civil War - The Blue and the Grey by AGEOD is apparently very, very in depth and could suck time from your life
2. Gary Grigsbys War Between the States is awesome and a game can be finished in a few hours...but don't let that fool you - it is no slouch

At the tactical level
1. John Tillers Battleground Civil War. There's ALOT of game in here and very good if all you want is to fight battles

And the creme de la creme....Forge of Freedom. This is both strategic and tactical. It's an awesome game with a multitude of options to help newcomers. You have strategic choices to make and when there's a battle, you jump down to the tactical level...and the AI is no slouch. Interface is a little on the quirky side, but it won't take you long to get the hang of that, then it's just deep, deep and deeper. A great game and the best imo.

[Bison36]

Forge of Freedom is a very solid game. As JD stated, the strategic level has a number of options to increase or decrease the difficulty and micromanagement of the game. The battle can be fought in three formats, of course the TBS tactical battles are my preferrance. Yes the interface does take some getting used too, but contain lots of information. The general bio's are also an excellent side of the game.

[Fallschirmjager]

So your telling me all of them are good. That is not what I was wanting to hear [;)]
I was wanting a clear favorite. In my Civil War gaming past I remember Civil War Generals 2 by Sierra. Wonderful game from the tactical side of things but horrible at linking the battles together. Some of the battles needed play balance as well as some were unwindable.
The game also had no coding for losses and prisoners taken. They counted as points for the battle being fought but meant nothing beyond that. A the battle of Seven Pines as the CSA I captured four entire US divisions totaling 13,000 men and inflicted another 23,000 casulties.
If the Union had lost 36,000 men during that juncture then the invasion of Virginia would have come apart and the Army of Northern Virginia would have marched on and probably taken Washington.
Instead in the game I got a decisive victory and was forced to fight the Seven Days.
Dumb


Anyways
Here is what I require for a Civil War game
A strategic layer of the game that is presented in moderate detail. I handle trouble movements, supply, building and raising new armies.
At the tactical level I have something similar to Civil War Generals 2
Battles are fought at brigade or regiment level.
Artillery is not abstracted and is rated per fun and each gun in the game has it's own rating depending on type.
Infantry rifles and carbines mean something and have different stats and can be purchased, produced or captured and then assigned to units.
Fortifications for both ocean and river hexes are present and hopefully include different guns stats based on type.
These fortifications can be built, repaired and upgraded.
The navy gets its own layer of game in both ocean and river form. Ships of different types can be built and naval battles take place in both the ocean and rivers. The blockade should be fully simulated and blockade runners be simulated.
Generals should have different stats, tendencies and bios.
The game should also have options for introducing generals at historical rates or at random. It should also promote demote generals based on in game success/ failure and not tied to real life events.
Full diplomacy should be offered.
The game should have options to turn Missouri and Kentucky into slave/free stats and should have options to where the European powers begin the game sympathetic to the Confederate cause or neutral with little hope of intervening. The games should also have a option for British cotton demands and it's effect on diplomacy with both the US and the CSA.


I realize no game is going to approach most of that. But those are my aims and aids in which those of you who have the games can help me make my decision.

Thanks to everyone for the help


If it comes down to it and prices are not that bad I could consider getting two of the games. However, I would like to avoid that.

[Bison36]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Here is what I require for a Civil War game Forge of Freedom
A strategic layer of the game that is presented in moderate detail. I handle trouble movements, supply, building and raising new armies. Forge of Freedom
At the tactical level I have something similar to Civil War Generals 2 Forge of Freedom
Battles are fought at brigade or regiment level. Forge of Freedom
Artillery is not abstracted and is rated per fun and each gun in the game has it's own rating depending on type. Forge of Freedom
Infantry rifles and carbines mean something and have different stats and can be purchased, produced or captured and then assigned to units. Forge of Freedom
Fortifications for both ocean and river hexes are present Forge of Freedom and hopefully include different guns stats based on type. These fortifications can be built, repaired and upgraded.
The navy gets its own layer of game in both ocean and river form. Ships of different types can be built and naval battles take place in both the ocean and rivers. The blockade should be fully simulated and blockade runners be simulated. Forge of Freedom though tactical TBS battles are not present
Generals should have different stats, tendencies and bios. Forge of Freedom
The game should also have options for introducing generals at historical rates or at random. It should also promote demote generals based on in game success/ failure and not tied to real life events. Forge of Freedom
Full diplomacy should be offered. Forge of Freedom depending on what full means [:)]
The game should have options to turn Missouri and Kentucky into slave/free stats Forge of Freedom and should have options to where the European powers begin the game sympathetic to the Confederate cause or neutral with little hope of intervening. Forge of Freedom The games should also have a option for British cotton demands and it's effect on diplomacy with both the US and the CSA. Now your just being crazy![:D]

I realize no game is going to approach most of that. But those are my aims and aids in which those of you who have the games can help me make my decision.
I'd say Forge of Freedom meets 99% of your requirements.
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/333/details/Forge.of.Freedom:.The.American.Civil.War.1861-1865

[JudgeDredd]

I agree with Bison...Forge of Freedom meets most of your criteria. It certainly seems to meet more of them than the other 3 I mentioned

[Lützow]

There is no title which covers all of that, but according to these demands FoF should be your cup of tea.

[killroyishere]

And the creme de la creme....Forge of Freedom. This is both strategic and tactical. It's an awesome game with a multitude of options to help newcomers. You have strategic choices to make and when there's a battle, you jump down to the tactical level...and the AI is no slouch. Interface is a little on the quirky side, but it won't take you long to get the hang of that, then it's just deep, deep and deeper. A great game and the best imo.

I concur with the above. I tried the Ageod version and was bored to tears and ripped it off my hard drive as fast as possible. I don't know what it really was that turned me off to it other than the icons for units, and just the plain boring combat results you just read. I guess I'm too used to instantaneous results and not sit on my hands and hope type of information feedback much later in the turn and I've forgotten what I did at certain points.
FOF lets you play out the tactical battles and it's the game I've always waited for a turn based strategic game and a tactical turn based combat system. I can't wait for more things from Western Civilization outside of Napoleonics (they made one for that era also).

Haven't given GGWBtS a go yet as I'm of the type when you have one you enjoy and like why change or buy something else? You can only play one at a time and you might as well play the best one all the time.

[htuna]

Forge of Freedom is what you want..

Killroy, I wouldn't slam Ageod so much.. .It's prettier graphics wise (doesn't take much to beat FOF there), the map is zoomable (a BIG PLUS)... Music is better.. at the strategic level, it seems a lot more realistic. And at the stategic level to me the battles are more satisifying.. Since you can't do tactical battles PBEM, I think AGEOD would win in the PBEM category too.

On the other side FOF is a awesome/fun game.. I love the tactical battles.. I love the whole researching upgrading weapons.. I like managing the Divisions/Corps/Army's better..

You can't go wrong with any of them (though I don't have War Between the States...yet)

Another outstanding Civil War game is Take Command 2nd Manassas

[Erik Rutins]

FJ, I've played all of them and enjoyed all of them greatly. To be honest, there is no bad choice here. They are all excellent games and I'm not just saying that. ACW gamers have never been so lucky on the computer side as they are now.

[Alan Sharif]

I have played the Ageod game and never really took to it. Can not comments on the Gary Grigsby game as I have not played it. However, I can totally and utterly recommend Forge Of freedom. May take a bit of getting used to but your initial effort will be repaid a hundread times over.
For individual Battles/Campaigns also happy to recommend the two Take Command titles and the soon to follow Scourge Of War: Gettysburg which is the third in the series. Also still play/enjoy Sid Meiers Civil War collection which greatly influenced the Take Command games.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Alan Sharif
...happy to recommend the two Take Command titles

Sorry...what two? I thought there was only Take Command 2nd Manassass?

[Hard Sarge]

I am bias

but, I was a Tester for both FoF and GGWbtS

both of them are very good games, and both of them are different, and I think would appeal to different style of gamer

(I never played the other one, so can't say anything about it)

from most of what you ask, I would say FoF

(but as I said, I am bias and I love HW)

(hmmm, HW=Hex War, the name for Tactical battle in FoF/CoG)

[killroyishere]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: Alan Sharif
...happy to recommend the two Take Command titles

Sorry...what two? I thought there was only Take Command 2nd Manassass?

There was 1st Bull Run before 2nd Manassas JD. Pretty much same area but different composition of OOB and maps. The rebs are stronger in the first one and the union in the 2nd one. I enjoy both and play open battles a lot as just a brigade and see how much I can influence the victory as well playing full army level the human player has too much of an advantage over the ai.

[Gen.Hoepner]

I've played a lot FoF...it's simply a GREAT game!
The AI is more than a challenge, both for detailed battle and for the strategic level.
I don't know the other games named...but on FoF i could bet my money!

[Erik Rutins]

By the way, sounds like a lot of folks here have not tried Gary Grigsby's War Between the States and a few have not tried AGEOD's American Civil War. As I said above, all of these are excellent games and you are doing yourself a disservice if you enjoy the ACW period and haven't given them all a try.

[Widell]

I tried both FoF and ACW and prefer ACW. In all fairness I should admit I spent a lot more time with ACW, so I may well be biased. I am sure you'll be happy with both games. In addition to all the helpful comments, I recommend having a look at any of the AAR's that are available. For ACW you need to look at the AGEOD site as there's not much going on here regarding ACW: http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=94 - I have been close to buying GG's version of this as well, but have been holding back on new games due to a massive generation shift of computer gear

[Hertston]

GGWbtS is the best of the three IMHO. All three are great games, but GG scores in two really important respects for me. First it has a 'feel' of the Civil War that the other two don't have in quite the same way and second it plays much faster with losing any depth.

Horses for courses, though. If you really want tactical battles to be included as part of the same package then FoF is obviously a better choice.

[Fallschirmjager]

If they are less than $40 I might get both FoF and the GG War between the States

[Bison36]

Actually I have AGEOD's ACW, but given the criteria that FJ posted FoF matches up better to what he is looking for in a game.. If you want a strategic game without tactical battles, ACW is not a bad game and honestly I think it plays better at that level. However if you want control over the economic and military development aspects of the USA/CSA, build your army's and not be confined to historic unit compositions, the choice to research weapons, tactics, logistics etc, generals with historic or random stats that have a variable entrance dates, the ability to plan a non historic attack and defense strategy and have tactical combat (like CWG2) that is done at a BDE level then FoF is the game. If all you want is tactical battles, John Tillers Battleground is the way to go and its good value for the number of scenario vs the price. That said I think the games he has developed for HPS are much more refined and play better, but you will pay a lot more money to get all of the campaigns covered in BG. I haven't played GGWbtS, someday I will perhaps, but others on the forum can highlight its virtues.