German production and other Qs

Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.

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Tuk
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German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

There doesn't seem to be any mention whatsoever in the game manual, AFAIK, of how German production works. From reading various posts I'm assuming that the three production categories (assembly/parts/engines) work something like-

1 capacity of assembly line + 1 completed parts of assembly type (1 parts capacity produces 1 parts unit) + 1/2/4 completed engine of assembly type (1 engine capacity produces 1 engine unit) + 1 day = 1 new aircraft.

To make planning simpler, I made an excel sheet listing in three columns all the types of assembly/parts/engines, showing which assembly uses which components (I'm happy to attach it if anyone else would find it useful). By sorting under their categories, it allows you to see at a glance how many assembly units are competing for the same parts and engines. You can then attempt to harmonise the three categories. I went on to calculate the entire capacity for each production category.

If the above formula is correct, there is a severe bottleneck in German production. Excluding damage, as is, parts will never keep up with the other elements of production and if thay are also expended in repairs, the problem will be exacerbated.

I'm wondering if there is some advantage to be gained in excess assembly/engine production capacity relative to parts, whether I've misunderstood the relation of categories, or perhaps it's just another example of the mythical efficiency of nazi economy. Perhaps also, there is away to convert one category to another, eg assembly lines to parts production.

I am also puzzled by the in game production information. For example, Germany begins with no active ME 262 capacity in any category, yet a few days after changing some capacity it has gained a stockpile of parts/engines, has an "actual" production of 2 parts and with still no active assemblies, has ME 262 production requirements. What does this mean? What do the headings in the requirements screen mean?

Additionally, I am frustrated by the German JGr equipped with old French planes which will not upgrade to German planes, only other old crap. According to wiki, these planes were used for training. Do pilots pass through them on their way to proper JGs, or are they stuck there and doomed?
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Hi,
 
Yes, there's someone really interested in that exel sheet you've created....ME! :-)
Would you please post it? Would be usefull....thx
 
As far as i understand the German Economy yes: there's a bottleneck which cannot be ignored...and,AFAIK, there's no way to change a production line from "Parts" to "Engines" or the way back.
 
At the same time i'm puzzled by the fact that the "requirements" aren't affected by the industries that are being created with a long delay...i mean: if i have only the "require" column as my primary reference, how can i balance my economy if a brand new industry, which will come into production lines lets say in 100 days, will scramble my plans?
 
 
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Wayn Reinbold
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Wayn Reinbold »

I'm frustrated about the old french planes as well[:@]. One of the guru's told me that the Fw 190F and Fw190G will become upgradeable to better types at some point (I'm still not sure or recall want the trigger is). I assume the same will happen to all the other air unit that have cr*py fighter types, or these units will have to spend the war in safe areas.
Lanconic
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Lanconic »

The trigger for using German planes is roughly 500 spare German planes stockpiled.

My experience with German production is that ENGINES are the bottleneck, not parts.
I always have enough parts. Sorry to dispute, and not to demean your effort.
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Hard Sarge
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

what we call Trainer aircraft, will be locked into only upgrading to other trainer types, until there is enough in stock of a fighter, or a set date

you will also be able to go to the G2a or the G6a, which will later be able to change to normal fighters

the Jabo works some what along the same lines, Jabo Upgrade to Jabo

the AI will throw anything and everything at you, but the player, should pull the Trainers out of the line and horde them, let them train and gain exp, down the road, they will become decent (?) / workable units

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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

The trigger for using German planes is roughly 500 spare German planes stockpiled.

My experience with German production is that ENGINES are the bottleneck, not parts.
I always have enough parts. Sorry to dispute, and not to demean your effort.
Not at all. I'm trying to figure out how the game works and it looks like I have made a mistake, taking my engine requirement (219 engines) for current active assembly lines as the number of at start online assembly lines. Sorry, I was up late last night.

Adding up this time I find assembly to be the absolute bottleneck with roughly 148 at start capacity. This compares to 160 parts and 178 engine. Clearly, if you are making multi-engine planes in quantity, that will eat into your engine capacity making engines the relative bottleneck. The next question is how do repairs eat into production?

Attached is a version of my production planner. Here's how I'm using it-

There are three sheets, Assembly, Parts and Engines.

Say you want to know how many FW 190A-6 you are producing and their production needs. You have 13 assembly capacity making this model up and running. It uses FW 190 parts and the BMW 801 D-2 engine.

Sort the Assembly page for Parts. You'll see there are 5 possible planes that use these parts. 3 are currently in production, demanding 23 parts per day.
Now go to the Parts sheet and you'll see that current production of FW 190 Parts is 26, so more than you need purely for production.

Now sort the Assembly sheet by engines and a nice group of D-2 will appear, letting you see that potentially 8 planes use this engine, and 5 of these are currently in production. Their combined assembly capacity is 32 planes. All are single engine planes so their demand is also 32 engines. Now go to the Engines sheet and you'll find you're two engines short of assembly line demand. Sort it!

None of the above is adjusted for damage or repairs, however, and clearly as you alter your production the spreadsheet will need constant updating.

Other use-
You're trying to free up some capacity and see some Reggiane parts being built. You don't know what they're for, though, so before you re-tool the factories go to the Assembly sheet and sort it for parts. All the planes using Reggiane will be grouped together. It's just the 2005, but I'll be wanting that so I'll have to find some spare factories elsewhere.

Feel free to improve it and check for inaccuracies.

Edit: I can't attach the spreedsheet, it's not supported. Anyone wants it, send me a PM.
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Hard Sarge
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Hard Sarge »

zip it up, the forum allows zipped files
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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

zip it up, the forum allows zipped files
I'm still getting "unsupported", it only accepts gif, txt and jpg.
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by macbeth »

I changed production from a1 to human.Then altered some production to suit my requirements a few turns later the computer began upgrading factories to things i did not want.Also how does develoment work do you have to produce x number of planes/engines to bring forward delivery dates of new planes.Thanks
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Nicholas Bell
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Nicholas Bell »

I'm still getting "unsupported", it only accepts gif, txt and jpg.

Rename the *.zip to *.txt
Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Nice idea but .zip is ingrained at the end of the file whatever you rename it.
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harley
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by harley »

Up it to the Mods forum - that allows more file types. 
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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Thanks, it's up now under "Production Planner"
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

I DLed it Tuk, thx a lot!
 
However, my comprehension of the game mechanics is growing every turn i play, but now i'm kinda worried about what i'm reading...is the AI automatically changing the production lines?? Even if everything is switched to "Human" ?...i thought the AI would only "move" the industries, not changing their production...some clarification would be helpful...
 
However yes, the bottleneck is the engine production...and specifically those planes who required more than 1 engines...if you plan to produce more two-engine a/c, or more Italian fighters....well, the bottleneck will be enanched...
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by TechSgt »

ORIGINAL: Tuk

...

1 capacity of assembly line AFAC + 1 completed parts of assembly type CFAC + 1/2/4 completed engine of assembly type EFAC + 1 day = 1 new aircraft.

I understand this would be the top level of manufacturing, but I wonder how ALUM, RUBBER, BBFAC, would effect the above. The reduction of ALUM factories should reduce the raw material entering the AFAC's. Additionally, ARM & RAIL might also enter into the equation.
I just remembered, in the old manual it is mentioned that bombing a RAIL will lower the output of all the surrounding factories. This is probably done by not adding the factory's output to the total pool if the RAIL is inoperatable.


...

I'm wondering if there is some advantage to be gained in excess assembly/engine production capacity relative to parts, whether I've misunderstood the relation of categories, or perhaps it's just another example of the mythical efficiency of nazi economy. Perhaps also, there is away to convert one category to another, eg assembly lines to parts production.

IMHO: The advantage would be a stockpile to offset Allied bombing. If an EFAC(1) factory is damaged to 60% it will be shut down for 11 days. 1 point repair/day until damage <50%. Then it would go back to producing. If there was a stockpile of 11 engines then there is not a disruption to production -- at this level.

...
Tuk;

Interesting work. Thanks.

TS
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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Interesting considerations about the implications between production and the whole list of industrial outputs. I think it has to be somehow like that...it would not have any sense to have all those possible targets if their damage was not effecting also the aircrafts production.
Now the real problem i see is: we must have a screen which says, turn by turn, which is the REAL actual production of a/cs... In fact there's no real pourpose to have the "potential" production indicated (required, planned, actual) if these numbers aren't affected by the damage levels...and, to muster the game mechanics, we must also know which are the connected implications between the different "targets" (so to say RUBBER, ALLUMINIUM, POWER, RAIL...etc etc...)
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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Ufff. The way I see it, I'm trying to make a work around for an archaic game engine. You're talking about a new game engine, sounds like. Yes! I'd love to see it! Is there anyone working on 'Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich for Windows'?

In my view, in such a reworked game, there should be sometimes less accurate information available to players but it should be more easily accessable. The results of the most meticulous economic plans are never absolutely predictable even without bombing. To be viable they must constantly be re-evaluated and updated. This is well represented in the average repair for a facility type modified by a die roll. I'm not sure if the same principle applies to delay for factories re-tooling or being built. If not, it should.

So yes, it would be great to have a screen flagging up rubber or oil refining as bottlenecking the economy, or the danger of them doing so if the current trajectory of damage continues. Let the computer collect the data and present the report in a digestible format so you can make the decisions you think flow from it.

A bit off topic, should we really know how many enemy planes crash on the airfields we can't see, or from which enemy airfields their planes take off? Do we have too much info on how well we're doing?

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Gen.Hoepner
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Gen.Hoepner »

Ok, i understand your point mate.
However it'd be already interesting to know the exact code-rule...so that, even with a given approximation, we could understand the general rule so to predict the industrial outcome of our bombed economy! [:)]&nbsp;
The way i see it if i know which are the general code that rules the industrial economy of the game, i can decide what to defend the most and what to let go or drop...it's pretty pointless to spend hours in balancing the aircraft production (enegines, parts, assembly lines) while you do not know that a Steel industry bombed can screw up the whole thing...considering that i cannot defend everything i NEED to decide what to defend and at what cost...
&nbsp;
My 0.2 cents btw
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harley
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by harley »

And here is the problem Ron and I have. I'm not having a go at you two guys specifically, just players in general - there are those who what to know everything, and those who want abstracts. We try to balance out the competing needs as best we can, but when it comes to the "I must know the mechanics" arguments, the default position is always going to be "no, you don't. I'm not saying we'll never tell, I'm just saying "at the current juncture of time the events do not present themselves for full disclosure of the facts pertaining to the situation as it stands".

[:D] Sir Humphrey would be prod of me.

Sometimes - and we've watched it happen - staying mute and allowing the players to think something through is the best course. We've seen wild assertions, considered responses and well researched behaviours that are not far from the truth, and allow the other players the ability to play without actually knowing what's in my head.


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Tuk
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RE: German production and other Qs

Post by Tuk »

Not quite sure what you're refering to here, Sir Humph. In a modernised version of the game engine you could implement a wide range of realism options but with regard to the existing game I have to say I find it disappointing that many of the questions I put in the opening post of this thread have gone unanswered. They&nbsp;deal with&nbsp;issues that a player has to understand if their in game decisions are to have anything like their desired effects. The questions&nbsp;arise because an explanation of production is omited from the manual and game interface and no adequate substitute for&nbsp;a manual is&nbsp;currently to be found on this forum.
&nbsp;
I need answers to these questions to play the game so&nbsp;I'll put them again-
&nbsp;
Is this formula correct?
&nbsp;
1 capacity of assembly line + 1 completed parts of assembly type (1 parts capacity produces 1 parts unit) + 1/2/4 completed engine of assembly type (1 engine capacity produces 1 engine unit) + 1 day = 1 new aircraft.

Germany begins with no active ME 262 capacity in any category, yet a few days after changing some capacity it has gained a stockpile of parts/engines, has an "actual" production of 2 parts and with still no active assemblies, has ME 262 production requirements. What does this mean?
&nbsp;
What do the headings in the requirements screen mean? (requirements/planned/actual/stockpile)
I ask the above because I can not make head nor tale of them. I do not understand how the planned and actual capacity relates (or should relate) to the capacity assigned to a given product. For example, I found in one case that the combined planned/actual capacity for one product was about double the capacity I'd asigned to it. Further, I don't understand how a gross undersupply of a product can leave me with a stockpile of the under supplied product.
&nbsp;
Without a description of how the game should work, we players cannot determine whether or not it actually does work. Really, the manual needs updating with a production chapter so players don't have to spend hours trawling threads for scraps of often unconfirmed, implied information.
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