A Plea For Allied Production

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Kaoru
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Kaoru »

ORIGINAL: eMonticello
ORIGINAL: Kaoru
-snip-
Oil is the only thing that might be considered a West Coast industry, since Texas and a few Caribbean nations provided the bulk of oil needed for the European theater and East Coast. Everything else... aircraft, engines, ships, etc. were produced throughout the US (primarily both coasts and Midwest). Demobilization would need to be factored in any Allied production because major ship, aircraft, and munition contracts were being canceled from 1943 through 1946 without regard to what was happening in the theaters (after all, if you know that you're winning, why spend more tax dollars on things you may not need).
True, true. The Texas oilfields were intense, back in those days. Demobilization - that's an interesting thing to figure out how to represent, though. Obviously, there's no events-system in this game, that could fire something at certain dates (with variable periods factored in) decreasing both the output and the requirements of factories on the west coast, and midwest. Hmmm...

Here's a thought: Can the reinforcement engine handle negative values?
For instance, if you had a reinforcement-chit that was going to provide, say, -15 Hellcats, and that rolled around, would 15 Hellcats disappear from your general pool?
Taking that a step further, if you could target that to a specific city or place (which can't currently be done, to my knowledge, all reinforcements show up in their national home-city) would you be able to decrease the number of planes of that sort in that location, by that amount?

The system would probably need to be adjusted to work, but if it could be used in those two ways, then it could be used to both decrement the light-and-heavy industries, refineries, factories, etcetera, that are present in the game's geographic scope - and cut into the pool you're working with, somewhat, so you didn't end up with a huge end-game glut.

Just some food for thought on this subject.
~Kaoru

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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Buck Beach »

Oh boy here I go again and I just can't stop myself from throwing out some negative vibes.

You are obviously a very intelligent young, but by your own admission you have had the game for only three days.
Three days!! I can't believe you are putting this much energy attacking "Windmills" when at this point you should be diving into the details of the game by learning and playing it. But that is just me, an owner player of Pac War, Uncommon Valor, WITP and now WITP-AE.

Grouchy Old Man Buck
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Kaoru
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Kaoru »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Oh boy here I go again and I just can't stop myself from throwing out some negative vibes.

You are obviously a very intelligent young, but by your own admission you have had the game for only three days.
Three days!! I can't believe you are putting this much energy attacking "Windmills" when at this point you should be diving into the details of the game by learning and playing it. But that is just me, an owner player of Pac War, Uncommon Valor, WITP and now WITP-AE.

Grouchy Old Man Buck
Haaa. Believe me, I'm doing plenty of playing on the side! And plenty of reading, too - Admiral's Edition and War in the Pacific in general is a gem that I'm very dedicated to exploring in full. It's been more like five or six days, at this point, but that's not much of a difference - there is a lot that I don't know.

That's one reason I'm not commenting on any aspects of the game that are there, though - I don't feel at all qualified to address issues present in a game that I don't fully understand. I'm not talking about the utility of merchant conversions, about the supply or replacement system, about transporting troops with a minimum of disruption, or knowing where I can use strategic move at, to get my forces around faster.

I'm addressing a part of the game that doesn't exist, yet, not in the form I'm describing, at least. The way I look at it, that evens the field just a bit - I'm as qualified to think about this as most others, even if I wouldn't call myself qualified to make any decisions on it, knowing as little about the core balance of the game as I do.

Thank you for your concern, though! To reiterate, however, I'm not 'attacking' the current system of reinforcement, as I've said, it works, it works well, and it functions excellently in the contexts of the game, for historicity and simplicity, and balance.

But I know myself, and I know it won't satisfy, when there's an area of the game that I immediately see might serve from more focus. I'm not saying it's the most deserving of that focus, nor the most important issue at hand, but I don't see much harm in discussing it, at least.

Good to hear from you, at least, Buck! It can't all be sunshine and roses - you've as much right to call me out like this as I've right to post in the first place. This is a free forum, after all! [:D]
~Kaoru
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Whenever I should falter in my cherished belief that through the power of the human spirit, through will, and sacrifice, all things are possible, I read these.
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Buck Beach
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: Kaoru
ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Oh boy here I go again and I just can't stop myself from throwing out some negative vibes.

You are obviously a very intelligent young, but by your own admission you have had the game for only three days.
Three days!! I can't believe you are putting this much energy attacking "Windmills" when at this point you should be diving into the details of the game by learning and playing it. But that is just me, an owner player of Pac War, Uncommon Valor, WITP and now WITP-AE.

Grouchy Old Man Buck


Haaa. Believe me, I'm doing plenty of playing on the side! And plenty of reading, too - Admiral's Edition and War in the Pacific in general is a gem that I'm very dedicated to exploring in full. It's been more like five or six days, at this point, but that's not much of a difference - there is a lot that I don't know.

That's one reason I'm not commenting on any aspects of the game that are there, though - I don't feel at all qualified to address issues present in a game that I don't fully understand. I'm not talking about the utility of merchant conversions, about the supply or replacement system, about transporting troops with a minimum of disruption, or knowing where I can use strategic move at, to get my forces around faster.

I'm addressing a part of the game that doesn't exist, yet, not in the form I'm describing, at least. The way I look at it, that evens the field just a bit - I'm as qualified to think about this as most others, even if I wouldn't call myself qualified to make any decisions on it, knowing as little about the core balance of the game as I do.

Thank you for your concern, though! To reiterate, however, I'm not 'attacking' the current system of reinforcement, as I've said, it works, it works well, and it functions excellently in the contexts of the game, for historicity and simplicity, and balance.

But I know myself, and I know it won't satisfy, when there's an area of the game that I immediately see might serve from more focus. I'm not saying it's the most deserving of that focus, nor the most important issue at hand, but I don't see much harm in discussing it, at least.

Good to hear from you, at least, Buck! It can't all be sunshine and roses - you've as much right to call me out like this as I've right to post in the first place. This is a free forum, after all! [:D]
~Kaoru

For fun you might check out the RHS mod of WITP for ElCid's approach to production. I personally miss him being here with us on this forum and his mod tinkering. Maybe after his RL project he will return and start "stirring the stuff" again. He would enjoy very much your discussions. I also wish the Mogami were back with us as he to brought a lot to the game in discussions such as this.

As for my opinion, yes it is a free forum and I surely believe you are enjoying the soapbox aspect of it to verbosely preach your message.
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Kaoru
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Kaoru »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
ORIGINAL: Kaoru
ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
-snip-
-snip-
For fun you might check out the RHS mod of WITP for ElCid's approach to production. I personally miss him being here with us on this forum and his mod tinkering. Maybe after his RL project he will return and start "stirring the stuff" again. He would enjoy very much your discussions. I also wish the Mogami were back with us as he to brought a lot to the game in discussions such as this.

As for my opinion, yes it is a free forum and I surely believe you are enjoying the soapbox aspect of it to verbosely preach your message.
If I owned WitP - the original WitP - I'd definitely take you up on that. Unfortunately, since Matrix didn't offer any sort of WitP box-set or 'complete' edition, and because the original WitP is only a little cheaper than AE, I decided to spend my student finances on the newer game, figuring that it's got more features, more support, and more going on.

I may just go and read up on what he's done, though - see if his mod's transferrable to AE, perhaps, so I can see what that's all about - and know just what you're talking about. This Cid fella sounds like a good guy, and I hope he comes back, too.

I don't know Mogami - though I continue hear people referring to them as 'the Mogami', perhaps I ought to as well? - but unless they've departed the forum or, more somberly, the world, for good, I hope they return, as well. A community is defined by its members, and those two sound like neat fellows.

As for me? Yeah, I'm chatty. [:'(] Excessively so, in some ways. 'Verbose' is not a moniker I'll deny, nor 'talkative'. If you went so far as to call me a 'Chatterbox', I'd grin and bear it - it's true. One of my nicknames in the real world is, in fact, 'Chatty Bastard'. But that's hardly a family-forum suitable handle. [:D]
~Kaoru
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/C ... WorldWarII
Whenever I should falter in my cherished belief that through the power of the human spirit, through will, and sacrifice, all things are possible, I read these.
Then I feel better.
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Plenty of good-intentioned people have pushed for this, but remember that for this to go into a patch would require lots and lots and lots of coding and testing. An Allied production model would have to be built from the ground up.

Not to mention that this topic was discussed with the publisher and early on, was clearly determined to be "out of scope" for AE. The original designers very specifically intended to allow the Japanese to have more latitude than the Allies in terms of production and the publisher for WITP determined to preserve at least this design aspect for AE. I'm not sure we actually received any other design parameters from the publisher, other than this one. So very specifically "out of scope" for AE, but not for "WITP II" whatever that might be [;)]

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Nikademus
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Nikademus »

Thank goodness for small favors. [:D]
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chesmart
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by chesmart »

We want WITP II !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When are you guys going to start working on it ? Offworlder allied aircraft factories do upgrade to the next aircraft but only if it has an upgrade.
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by ChezDaJez »

P.S.:
quote:


ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I also share your view. The Axis player should not be free to produce unlimited numbers of aircraft and I think you will find that the economic simulation contained within AE will severely limit the ability of the Japanese player to do so. Changes must be made slowly or the Japanese player will cause more damage to his economy than any allied 4E ever will.

Chez

The Axis player shouldn't, and the Allied player shouldn't. I'm behind you 100%, on that. But even using, say, this site (Grim Economic Realities) as a basis, you can see that Japan increased her wartime production of planes over 500% from 1939-1944 - and that's not even counting from 1937, when Japan initially entered the war against China.

Besides, the idea of a limiting economic simulation seems to fit the other Allies well enough, as well. Japan shouldn't be free to produce unlimited numbers of planes, and nor should the Allies.

But both of them sure as heck did pump out a staggering number.

Japan's primary problem wasn't with her industrial capacity. Japan was capable of producing large numbers of aircraft as evidenced in 1944. Her major problem was that her military leaders inexplicably counted on a short war and made few, if any, preparations for a longer war. The total lack of foresight is evidenced in every industrial decision Japan made through mid-1942 when it became blatantly obvious that Japan was in for a long war of attrition. One that she could not afford.

It's obvious that Japan could not compete with the production capabilities of the US and her allies once they got going. But if (and its a big if) Japan had used some foresight before the war to increase her military production capability in 1940 and 1941 to the levels she achieved in 1944, the war would have dragged out longer and would have been far more costly in lives on both sides. The end would still have been the same but it would have been a much more difficult struggle.

Delayed military production was not the only issue Japan faced. She also faced a shortage of skilled workers, particularly after 1943. Japan thought it would be a good idea to take a large portion of their skilled workforce and turn them into infantry. The result was predictable. Production quality dropped so far that many fine aircraft such as the George and the Frank were barely capable of taking to the air let alone achieving anything near their full potential. Add to that the strangle hold US submarines had on the movement of strategic materials and it becomes a wonder they lasted as long as they did.

Japan ensured her own defeat in 1945 more than the allied powers ever could have hoped. If there ever was a book on how not to conduct a war, Japan wrote it.

Chez

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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by vinnie71 »

Keep in mind that Japan had been at war for almost a decade before Pearl Harbour. Frankly it did not have either the money or the resources to expand its industry or armed forces quickly to match the allies. Many people also forget that Japan was fighting a 3 way war against the US, Commonwealth and China with the added burden of keeping a full third of her army tied down in Manchuria. So a straight comparison between Japan and the US is fallacious. Even the US considered Japan the lesser threat and concentrated its might against Germany first. The allies could give ground and roll with the punches, waiting for better days, the Japanese could only expand and keep them off balance. To put it simply, by the end of 1943, Japan was actually exhausted.

In retrospect Japan's entry in the war was an opportunistic but still desperate gamble. The Soviet Union had been neutralised (up to a point), the colonial empires of the French and the Dutch were tottering. At that point there were 2 main rivals the US (which was an unkown quantity except for those like Yamamoto who actually went there) and the Commonwealth which was fighting off the Germans. The Japanese were counting on a sluggish US mobalisation and on the feebleness of the Commonwealth. On both points they were wrong...

I always try to imagine one scenario - Germany not declaring war on the US. How long would Japan have lasted then? The Atlantic fleet moves to the Pacific, the army mobalises and concentrates on the West Coast and transport ships readied to carry them wherever they needed to be carried. Frankly unless Japan could have managed a couple of early naval victories, the Allies would have literally swarmed over the Co-prosperity Sphere in a matter of months - a year and a half at most...
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

I always try to imagine one scenario - Germany not declaring war on the US. How long would Japan have lasted then? The Atlantic fleet moves to the Pacific, the army mobalises and concentrates on the West Coast and transport ships readied to carry them wherever they needed to be carried. Frankly unless Japan could have managed a couple of early naval victories, the Allies would have literally swarmed over the Co-prosperity Sphere in a matter of months - a year and a half at most...

I think realistically it would have been a lot less than the full magilla as the US remained ready in the Atlantic. Even still, the difference in ships, planes, material, and troops would have been much more for IJ to deal with. Of course, the CV's, BB's, transports and landing ships wouldn't have been built any faster, so there would have been some limitations.
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Kull
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Kaoru

One thing that I've found rather disappointing is the Allied player's complete lack of control over production and industry. I've read the threads detailing why - and they make a lot of sense. It's true - the war in Europe took priority, in everything...

And that, in a nutshell, is why Allied Production isn't part of WitP. Well, that and the coding nightmare of putting two production systems in place. But the idea of regional production has some merit, and provides some insight into a mechanism by which - someday - an Allied Production system could be noodled into existence in some future version of WitP. So let's go look at each region and see if that's instructive in any way:

Australia: Start here as it's the best candidate. Most of the Austalian war production from '42 onward supported Pacific operations, so there should be room to adjust. But not all. Australian and New Zealand units played a large role in Africa, and they didn't do that absent support from home.

China: Even a better candidate. Zero of their production supported Europe. Or anyone else outside of China. Could be tricky to model, but at least there were no siphons (other than the massive one called "corruption") to account for.

India: Production here supported both "Europe" and the Pacific, so you'd have to be able to disentangle the two. Don't forget that Indian units played a large role in Africa and the Middle East.

Canada: Physically there's a lot of this nation displayed on the WitP AE map. But realistically, Canada's primary role in WW2 was to support European theatre operations, not those in the Pacific. Diverting more than a handful of resources to the Pacific is questionable.

US: Is most of it on the map? No. Did the industries on the map support only the Pacific? No. As most people have commented, this is just one great big Pandora's Box.

UK: Other than a single off-map hex, it's not even on the map. And pretty safe to say that the vast majority of resources supported Europe. But, if you're going to have an Allied production model, they have to be factored in. Ugh.

Here's where most folks would say, "sorry kid, aint happening" and move on. But with enough research, it *could* be done. As Treespider opined, the key is victory points. As the game stands now, an Allied player in WitP who ignores the needs of the European war suffers no consequnces, but in RL it could have been catastrophic. So fine. Establish an Allied Production system that requires the Allied player to pay VPs when increasing (or even altering) his Pacific resource allocations at the expense of Europe. You think it's worth the risk? OK, pay for it.
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Kull
Here's where most folks would say, "sorry kid, aint happening" and move on. But with enough research, it *could* be done. As Treespider opined, the key is victory points. As the game stands now, an Allied player in WitP who ignores the needs of the European war suffers no consequnces, but in RL it could have been catastrophic. So fine. Establish an Allied Production system that requires the Allied player to pay VPs when increasing (or even altering) his Pacific resource allocations at the expense of Europe. You think it's worth the risk? OK, pay for it.


Agree with all your points..., especially the "it ain't happening". With one exception. If the Allies have to pay "VP's" to take things away from Europe; why shouldn't they gain "VP's" for sending things TO Europe? If losing some P-39's is such a big deal there, surely gaining some should be just as important? Just wondering.
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by vinnie71 »

...which is why that I argue that if an allied production is ever implemented (I know, I know...) it should have an inherent cap. One can't have the Australians running around in Beufighters the whole war...
 
One other feature that I would have liked was a transfer of equipment from one nation to another. Ex. the US very rapidly gets lots of obsolete fighters like Lancers or Mowhoks or 75mm guns which would have been more than welcome to the Chinese. If only these could be transferred...
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by wworld7 »

With enough resources (money and time) I agree anything "can" be done.

So who is going to take the risk?
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by ny59giants »

I would add what Buck said about Allied production modifications made in RHS. El Cid made adjustments for the Allies mainly with their aircraft production as you had to repair the factories and ramp up production. It took 5 months to repair a 150 plane factory rather than get them all at once once you reached the magic start date. He started most of the American industry (Heavy Industry, Oil, Resources) on the West Coast with damaged centers that required supplies to repair and some would take most of the war to fully repair. As an Allied player you had to move Resources from Australia to West Coast and New Orleans to produce supplies an generate HI. So there was more emphasis on production, but no where near what you are looking for. The link below may give you some idea of what is capable with the existing game engine (I don't know the AE Editor enough yet to know what is and isn't possible yet).

http://www.rhs.akdreemer.com/rhs_home.html

[center]Image[/center]
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Kull
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RE: A Plea For Allied Production

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Agree with all your points..., especially the "it ain't happening". With one exception. If the Allies have to pay "VP's" to take things away from Europe; why shouldn't they gain "VP's" for sending things TO Europe? If losing some P-39's is such a big deal there, surely gaining some should be just as important? Just wondering.

Definitely. It makes as much sense to "give" as it does to "take". In some respects, it *could* be like playing a variant game in which Adm King dies in a plane crash or something. The Allied player opts to use fewer resources, but has a lower victory threshhold.

But the larger issue of setting up Allied Production is daunting. The absolute "must-have" pre-requisites are detailed knowledge of each region's output, PLUS the percentage allocated to each theatre (in RL). And after that prodigious bit of research is complete, then comes creating the AP engine and THEN the tweaking. Oh god, the tweaking.
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