burma logistics

[onhilotime]

Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan...in WITP I always holed up on the Irawaddy...but I dont see how I can run supplies into Shwebo. Will supplies cross the river from Imphal?

Where would you defend India?

Thanks,
Hilotime

[Andy Mac]

Imphal/Kohima/Chittagong.
 
Trying to defend south of the mountains without a workign port will be tough better to stay on the railway and logistic net north of the mountains and reactr to them

[Andy Mac]

Cox Bazaar is dangerous but may be needed.
 
I keep a solid reserve at Rangpur on the rail net so it can respond to an attack on any ofr the three likely zones.
 

[Q-Ball]

That's a good question. Pegu and the Woods E of Tauung Gyi are obvious choke points, but after that, there aren't alot of great choices, particularly if you want to defend the Burma Road (which I presume still means holding Lashio).

Rangoon isn't the complete dead-end it was on the stock WITP map, but it's pretty easy to flank anyway, particularly where that railway connects the two roadways north of Prome.

Mandalay isn't the fortress it used to be, because it is now on the correct side of the Irriwaddy. Shwebo is protected by the river, but withdrawing there uncovers Lashio, which presumably is the reason to defend Burma.

[Andy Mac]

Which is the correct simulation of Burma - its tough once the retreat starts
 
If you are sensible you over rule Hutton's plan for forward defence and dig in at Pegu behind the Sittang River.
 
Only problem is if you lose a fight there you retreat to Rangoon and it becomes a race to the north - not to mention the Japanese can and will try to flank you to the North towards mid Burma.
 
IF you can get 1st Burma and 17th Indian dug in (so total 7 Bde equivalents) and hold the Burma Frontier Force and Burma Rifles Bns to hold the rail line north plus bring in a couple of Divisions of 5th Chinese Army to hold Mandalay/Taung Gyi you have a shot at delaying the Japanese initial trhust.
 
The Chinese Divs start out very weak but it takes a remarkably small amount of time with rest to get them to 100 AV each.
 
As an allied player you then have th efollowing choices
 
18th British Div (3 Bdes)
44th and 45th Indian Bdes (2 Bdes)
6th and 7th AusDivs (6 Bdes)
7th Armoured Bde
 
Potentially you can commit a lot of force to Burma - having said that in PBEM as soon as those units are identifed in Burma I will land at Ceylon, Darwin, Perth, Akyab and Cox Bazaar and isolate them because the counterattack force is committed.
 
 

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I will land at Ceylon, Darwin, Perth, Akyab and Cox Bazaar and isolate them because the counterattack force is committed.

Which leads to the question, how many allied torpedo squadrons are available in early 42 for India and SEAC commands? Or are the 500lb bombs no longer tennis balls when it comes to penetrating armored ships?

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: onhilotime
Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan

I'd defend the hex SE of Pegu (or are rivers pretty much worthless now?). Once that fell, I'd fall back to Shwebo and Lashio, with the Brits in Shwebo and the Chinese in Lashio. After that it's India, with a large mobile reserve kept on the rear area rails to react to any Japanese advances. Only brigades in the forward bases, no sense letting Japan see what you've got. Though Imphal should probably get a full division instead of a brigade.

Jim

[onhilotime]

IF you can get 1st Burma and 17th Indian dug in (so total 7 Bde equivalents) and hold the Burma Frontier Force and Burma Rifles Bns to hold the rail line north plus bring in a couple of Divisions of 5th Chinese Army to hold Mandalay/Taung Gyi you have a shot at delaying the Japanese initial trhust.

I like the idea of a strong defense at Pegu, but reading your AAR against the AI made me think allied ground forces in Burma were useless until late 1942. I used to naval extract British and Dutch forces from Malaya and Sumatra to help hold Rangoon...but with the new port rules and restrictions this doesnt seem like a good option.

Hilotime

[Andy Mac]

Hutton and Wavell IRL insisted on holding Moulmien Smythe the commander of the ground wanted to be back behind the the Sittang river from day 1 as a result the allies were destroyed peicemeal.
 
The unknown question is would it have made a difference - my personal view it may have delayed the fall of Burma a week or two but would not have prevented it.
 
An allied player trying the same thing will face that same issue - Burma Div is heavily dependent on weak Burmese Rifle Squads and has very little in the way of supporting equipment.
 
17th Indian Div has three reasonable Bdes and an Indpt Bde that was attached during the fight in Burma (actually at various points both Q's commanded all the Bdes).
 
Fighting sensibly to a plan consolidating your defence, making no mistakes and prioritising your few replacement devices to Burma rather than Malaya will give you a shot at a short delay along the Sittang River (e.g. Pegu)
 
Reinforcing with all or some of the 5 Bdes sent to Malaya gives you an even better chance of holding on which is why most japanese players would be wise to drive for Pegu early.
 
Further reinforcing with the Chinese 5th Army and the 6 Australian Bdes will give you a damned fine shot at stopping the Japanese cold until they bring in substantial reinforcements BUT it leaves you very committed.
 
Andy
 
 

[Shark7]

From the perspective of a JFB:

Objective 1: Cut off Rangoon. Taking it isn't necessary early, just trapping the Brit troops there and cutting the supply lines is sufficient at first. Allies tend to abondon Rangoon anyway. Rangoon itself can be taken in due time.

Objective 2: Cut the Burma Road. Most important objective in Burma. You can effectively starve China by cutting the Burma Road. I would even consider taking Paoshan and Myitkyna to seal the deal.

Objective 3: Try to maintain air superiority over Northern Burma. This eventually becomes impossible without a lot of sweeps and a lot of luck.

I personally tend to stop in the Mandalay/Shwebo area for the simple fact that Burma is a quagmire and the logistics of going farther north is a nightmare. Akyab and Cox Bazaar are possible targets just to keep pressure on SE India.

So seeing my side you can kind of see what you should do to defend Burma...and honestly from the Allied side I would withdraw to a defensible position in the Mandalay/Shwebo/Lashio area and concentrate on keeping the Burma Road open, just abandon the rest early. Just my humble opinion though.

[greg_slith]

Andy, Are the rivers no longer labeled on the map? My geography knowledge of the area is very limited.

[Curty]

While we're on the subject....does anyone know whether the ai will try different strategies each time you start a new scenario/grand campaign?

[Andy Mac]

I know but cannot say[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Speedysteve]

Which probably means yes there are options for the AI there[:D]

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I know but cannot say[:D][:D][:D][:D]

I was kind of hanging out for a yes actually![;)]

[Andy Mac]

OK that was slightly unhelpfull so let me try to be more helpfull.
 
The AI does have some flexibility but not as much as I would like.
 
We managed to get an AI script selector squeezed in which will help for later customisation of scripts but there is only limited variations in what we are releasing with the game.
 
I don't want to say any more to avoid spoiling the suprises.
 
If you want to know more wait a week or two and I will start up an AI thread for folks that want to know the gory details with a big health warning that it could spoil the game if you read it
 
I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed

[Andy Mac]

Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.
 
After you have the game and the feeding frenzy has calmed down I will explain more but I really dont want to go into detail on the AI until its out there because it will spoil ift for folks.
 
Basically if I say anything everyone will read it and have part of the game ruined.
 
When a health warning has a chance of being effective I will discuss more but for now I need to not say much more
 
Broadly you will all thank me for keeping my gob shut for now

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK that was slightly unhelpfull so let me try to be more helpfull.

The AI does have some flexibility but not as much as I would like.

We managed to get an AI script selector squeezed in which will help for later customisation of scripts but there is only limited variations in what we are releasing with the game.

I don't want to say any more to avoid spoiling the suprises.

If you want to know more wait a week or two and I will start up an AI thread for folks that want to know the gory details with a big health warning that it could spoil the game if you read it

I do expect the AI to be an ongoing development over the next few weeks and months after release after you lot think of things I have missed

I realise that even if the ai had even 1 alternative strategy that would DOUBLE the value of the game to the ai players who i beleive are the majority[:'(]

[Curty]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Its really hard guys with so many folks running around jumping on every morsel of info the temptation to read a thread about the AI is huge but if I go into any more details I will spoil the game.

After you have the game and the feeding frenzy has calmed down I will explain more but I really dont want to go into detail on the AI until its out there because it will spoil ift for folks.

Basically if I say anything everyone will read it and have part of the game ruined.

When a health warning has a chance of being effective I will discuss more but for now I need to not say much more

Broadly you will all thank me for keeping my gob shut for now

That thread realy would be too much information for me, it's enough for me to know there are extra treats in store with AE[:)]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: onhilotime

Someone posted this screen of Burma in AE....trying to figure out where I'll draw the defensive line against Japan...in WITP I always holed up on the Irawaddy...but I dont see how I can run supplies into Shwebo. Will supplies cross the river from Imphal?

Where would you defend India?

Thanks,
Hilotime

Historically, the three high-capacity supply routes in Northern Burma were the Chindwin and Irrawaddy Rivers and the railway around Mandalay and extending to Myitkyina. The Burma Road was all-weather from Mandalay to Bhamo and fair-weather to Myitkyina and on to China. On the Indian side, there was the Brahmaputra River, the Assam Railway, and the all-weather road from Dimapur to Imphal and Tamu. The Ledo Road extended from Ledo to Myitkyina, linking up with the Burma Road there, which crossed into China. The boundary between the Japanese and the Commonwealth was defined by the supply divide. The CW drive into Central Burma after the monsoon ended in 1944 was air-mobile and air-supplied in part. The 'high'-capacity supply routes were by road and by river (transhipping at Kalewa).