Return to HttR and Questions

[Chad Harrison]

Hi all

It has been awhile, but I have recently started playing HTTR again. I was one of the original beta testers for both RDOA and HttR, but had to drop out of testing due to real life constraints. It was a huge disappointment to have to do so because I really, really enjoyed both of these games. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Dave and his team both personally, and based on their ability to create amazing games. I watched from the sidelines the release of COTA and the upcoming release of BFTB with a lot of respect for their ability to take a great game, and make it even better. Its especially cool to see a lot of the features that we requested for RDOA and HTTR getting in.

I wont lie, BFTB is what has brough me back. Its not that I have no interest in the subject matter of the other three games, its just that my interest in that subject matter pales in comparision to my interest in the Battle of the Bulge. Add on top of that some amazing enhancements, and Im sold on BFTB. To get ready for its release, and to pass time while I wait for AE, I have reinstalled HTTR and have been playing over the past couple of weeks. Lets just say that its been a nice reunion. I would have bought COTA in a heartbeat now, but with it still being full price on the eve of BFTB, I will pass (I know Matrix makes these calls, but I would assume that I am not the only one would would have bought COTA if its price was a bit lower, like in the $30 or so range).

The reason I am posting this all in here is while I am playing HTTR, I know many of my questions may have been addressed in COTA or the upcoming BFTB.

To start off, I have one major question/concern: artillery.

I remember having a bad taste in my mouth back in testing both RDOA and HTTR about artillery, and after playing for a couple of weeks, that taste is back. Dont get me wrong, artillery was and should be devastating. A strong artillery attack should break up even the most determined attack. However, the actual losses that I see from artillery in HTTR are a bit much. While a rifle company is attacking, I have seen it go from full strength to about 1/3 or 1/4 strength after some concentrated bombardments by the AI.

So before I go into more indepth questions, let me just start with a simple one: has artillery been toned down since HTTR?

Regardless, as I said above, its both great to be playing HTTR again and even better to see that Dave and his team is still making not only great games, but successful ones too.

Thanks in advance

Chad

[Chad Harrison]

Heres a specific example from my last game. I played on with everything turned up all the way, so I was quite happy with the results; atleast from a kill ratio standpoint.

Of my 2944 casulties, I would say that easily 2/3 to 3/4 of those are from just artillery. I would corner huge amounts of enemy troops, and then move in for the kill. Most of the troops I was facing were nearly dead. But somewhere behind enemy lines were a number of artillery battalions with what would seem like unlimited ammo. So needless to say, it was frustrating to see nearly all my losses come only from artillery bombardments.

[MarkShot]

Chad,

I don't know that arty was toned down. I do recall that something was done in COTA prior to release to reduce the arty being so likely to cause routing versus just causing a lot of supression. I think if you look at the COTA Mini-Guide, you'll find some discussion there. It is hard for me to remember what happened this morning let alone 5 years ago!

Now, I did read some comment in the manual that arty was responsible for 75% of all combat casualties in WWII. So, in that case, your data would not seem out of line. But then I am neither a historian or military expert ... my field is systems.

I hope that helps.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

I would say that easily 2/3 to 3/4 of those are from just artillery.

Two-thirds sounds about right.

[Arjuna]

I do believe that arty was resposible for around 80% of all casualties in WW2.

There have been a number of changes to arty since HTTR. The default barage is now 10 minutes rather than 15. IIRC ( it's been three years now since we launched COTA ) I reduced lethality and increased suppression and shock effects for COTA. The changes to a more realistic resupply system in COTA have also impacted. BFTB will see more mods to this again, such that priority of resupply can be given to certain units, such as arty. There have also been changes to reduce the amount of arty units able to coordinate on one "stonk". In HTTR this was effectively unlimited. Not so now.

[dogancan]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
There have also been changes to reduce the amount of arty units able to coordinate on one "stonk". In HTTR this was effectively unlimited. Not so now.

can you please be a little more explicit about this "coordination of the artillery" issue? I would like to hear any changes in BFTB while waiting for the release... [:)]

[Arjuna]

Sure, but you do realise the more time I spend here the longer the wait for BFTB. [:)]

Previously we allowed units to call up on-call fire support all the way up and across the chain. Now as you go further up the chain the probability of accessing a given arty unit is reduced. Moreover, we only go across at the onMapBoss level - if you get that far.

[Tzar007]

Chad, your experience is quite in line with my own games with HTTR and COTA. Artillery is the killer queen of the battlefield, and it shows. A unit submitted to an intensive artillery barrage can indeed suffer up to 30-40% casualties and morale. Morale can be entirely regained though if you let the unit rest out of the front lines for a period of over 24 hours).

[Arjuna]

Please remember here that most of casualties suffered are not killed but rather wounded, shocked and otherwise made ineffective.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Please remember here that most of casualties suffered are not killed but rather wounded, shocked and otherwise made ineffective.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I knew that a casulty in this game, as with almost all games, does not mean only death. It just means they are not shooting back anymore; ie. KIA/WIA/MIA and so on. And I would never say that a rifle company would be immune to being effectively 'eliminated' (again, not all killed, just no longer effective as a combat unit) if exposed to a concentrated barrage over a long period of time. But . . .

Its just doesnt sit right to see a unit 'assaulting' come under a heavy barrage (in HTTR, the AI will usually gang up multiple batteries on a single unit, atleast as far as I can tell) and go from full strength to 1/4 strength in a matter of minutes. Even if they were just walking in the open, not even aware of impending danger, and subjected to a heavy barrage only the first rounds would cause significant casulties as after that everyone would have gone to ground, especially an experienced unit. Let alone a unit that is 'assaulting' with only limited portions of a rifle company moving under overwatch of the remaining company.

However, as I said above, this is all based on HTTR. This was developed. . . well, a long time ago. And I do not mean for this to come across as a complaint. It is me trying to understand why things are the way they are in the game.

So let me ask this: is there any varying degree to the actual accuracy of artillery fire?

From what I can tell, everyone has a field phone in HTTR. Even if there is only guy left in a unit, and he is hiding in a hole after running away, he still has a field phone and is willing to stick his head up long enough to bring in fire from eight artillery batteries within two minutes. Obviously with a game of this scale and scope, there are some simplifications that need to be made to the process and difficulty of calling in accurate artillery fire in WWII (even for a trained FO) to keep the game running smooth (which is does perfectly). However, as far as I can tell, no one unit is better at calling in artillery than another. As long as *any* unit on the map 'sees' another unit, thats enough to call down nearly instantaneous death from above. Its the whole 'borg' spotting issue that Combat Mission struggles/struggled with for so long.

So again, is there any difference to artillery fire accuracy whether coming from a good order, dug in unit or a 1 man routed unit?

Thanks in advance, and thanks again for all the replies. Again, this is by no means a bash on the game, or even a deal breaker or something along those lines. I am just a beta tester at heart trying to understand why things are the way they are, and whether or not the actual in game results are the intended ones. I remember bringing this up a couple of years ago while in testing, but I cant remember the answers anymore [:D]

Thanks again

Chad

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Sure, but you do realise the more time I spend here the longer the wait for BFTB. [:)]

I am toying with the idea of getting COTA . . .

About what is the ETA to BFTB? Month? Two months?

Just curious, I know you all are close Dave. No pressue, just curious if I would have time to enjoy COTA while we await BFTB.

Thanks in advance.

Chad

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

From what I can tell, everyone has a field phone in HTTR.

Virtually all the combat units in HTTR would have had the capability to call in artillery support.

Earlier in the war, some lower level, Western units might have been absent this capability.

By late 1944, German units and and those of the Western Allies, from platoon leader on up, could call in support as needed.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

I am toying with the idea of getting COTA . . .

Chad,

As a gamer, the compelling reason to purchase CotA is likely it's collection of estabs.

You can game with forces you can't, otherwise, do with RDoA, HttR or the Bulge game.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Arjuna]

CHad,

We have made numerous mods to the code that deals with calling in fire support. We disenfranchise units for a range of reasons:

• routing or rout recovering
• personnel level < 25%
• personnel qty < 20 ( except HQs )
• effectiveness < 25% ( morale, cohesion, fatigue )

So basically rumps and ineffectives can't call in fire support.

[Tzar007]

Chad, in COTA I can't remember an instance where one of my companies suffering a concentrated arty barrage would go down to 25% strength in a matter of minutes. It takes a couple of hours, perhaps half a day of continuous bombing on a unit in open ground to get such casualty level. I especially have in mind the First Clash at Veve scenario, where as Germans you have to approach the Kleidi pass and get targeted with pinpoint accuracy by the British arty observers in the mountains while you are strolling in the valley below...

As somebody mentioned in COTA the arty was tweaked so that unit would be moving with great difficulty because of suppression, but it does not take casualties at such a fast rate. Mind you, it is still annoying to be under an artillery barrage and almost not being able to get them moving.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

CHad,

We have made numerous mods to the code that deals with calling in fire support. We disenfranchise units for a range of reasons:

• routing or rout recovering
• personnel level < 25%
• personnel qty < 20 ( except HQs )
• effectiveness < 25% ( morale, cohesion, fatigue )

So basically rumps and ineffectives can't call in fire support.

Again, thanks for the replies everyone.

This is probably in the manual somewhere, but thanks for the specific reply Dave. Again, I know that I am asking questions about a 5 year old game, so it may just be time to get COTA while I await BFTB.

Thanks again for all the replies. And keep up the great work Dave, BFTB is looking to be great.

Chad

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Chad, in COTA I can't remember an instance where one of my companies suffering a concentrated arty barrage would go down to 25% strength in a matter of minutes. It takes a couple of hours, perhaps half a day of continuous bombing on a unit in open ground to get such casualty level. I especially have in mind the First Clash at Veve scenario, where as Germans you have to approach the Kleidi pass and get targeted with pinpoint accuracy by the British arty observers in the mountains while you are strolling in the valley below...

As somebody mentioned in COTA the arty was tweaked so that unit would be moving with great difficulty because of suppression, but it does not take casualties at such a fast rate. Mind you, it is still annoying to be under an artillery barrage and almost not being able to get them moving.

I've found that its hard to track casualties in the game, particularly when using the "no intel" option. However, I sometimes get curious as to what's actually taking place when I call in 75+ howitzers and/or guns on a soft target in its "deploy" state. I do a save and then surrender to view the results. I'll tell you what, those guns can do some damage to a unit, when they're all piled on a target like that.

If excessive damage appears to be done in situations like that, I don't believe its because of a flaw in the handling of the data. Rather, its the concentration of firepower that I'm applying, using the Ctrl key. I "rope" the guns together, and then track the target if it attempts to escape. I don't know if this is "gamey," or not, but the interface allows it, so I blow 'em up! Artillery is about the coolest thing in the game, IMO.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)