A question to those who have served

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Rev Rick

Your story is so loke mine!

Always drunk, always in the seediest part of town - ect, ect -always looking forward tp the next port.

my Ex Navy friends always have jaws hit the floor when I tell em Im now a part time preacher.

'Must be something about this seeing the light stuff hey[:)][:D]

You got that right!! But, it was (and is) not only my steamin' buddies, but my college friends, and some of my family - still!!! I came out of the Navy with an old car, the GI Bill, and a lot of memories. I came within one phone call of shipping over, though. But, she was sure pretty!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

What do you think about officers?

I think the Air Force and the Pentagon have too many of them...

[Dixie]

What do I think about officers?

No comment...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

What do you think about officers?

I think the Air Force and the Pentagon have too many of them...

I agree on the 1st point but not on the second. The vast majority of people in the Pentagon are civilans. By that I mean something like 70%. And don't forget Mike, If you eliminate the Flag positions in the 5 sided squirrel cage , they will be out among the real troops where they can do far more damage! Better to keep them doing studies, program management, and other high profile makework than inflict them on the troops. [:D]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I agree on the 1st point but not on the second. The vast majority of people in the Pentagon are civilans. By that I mean something like 70%. And don't forget Mike, If you eliminate the Flag positions in the 5 sided squirrel cage , they will be out among the real troops where they can do far more damage! Better to keep them doing studies, program management, and other high profile makework than inflict them on the troops. [:D]

Reminds me of that joke, back when pentagon was first built. A messenger went in with a delivery Friday morning. When he finally found his way out, it was Tuesday, and he was a Lt. Colonel.

[Footslogger]

When you were in the Navy...what kind os places have you been to? Now I mean cities or islands, not the local brothel[:D]

[Odin]

Officers are ok when they are doing their job.

But sometimes, you will find one who usually left the real work to his sergeants and corporals.

And while doing this, they lost the overview completely[:D].

Then,  in an effort to get back the innitiative, they mess up everything[:)]

[Big B]

I respected the officers in my company (I was a lowly E-4). They were motivated and tried to do the best job they could. Our company CO instructed them to let the Sergeants run the rifle platoons as the hands on leaders, while the lieutenants were to distance themselves a bit.  Formerly, the LT's even ran the rifle squads, and the CO didn't feel the NCOs were getting the responsibilities they needed to learn their jobs efficiently.

But the officers I met were a good bunch, and they put taking care of their men first (unlike stories I have heard from my brother-in-law who was in the Navy).  They certainly believed in leading by example.

[juliet7bravo]

"If you eliminate the Flag positions in the 5 sided squirrel cage , they will be out among the real troops where they can do far more damage! Better to keep them doing studies, program management, and other high profile makework than inflict them on the troops."

Or worse, they'll all retire and get jobs as defense consultants.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When you were in the Navy...what kind os places have you been to? Now I mean cities or islands, not the local brothel[:D]

I've been out over 11 years, so let's see if I can remember.....

Great Lakes, Ill - Basic Training
Memphis, TN - School
Va. Beach, Va
Benidorm, Spain
Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Izmir, Turkey
Singapore
Toulon, France
Monaco
St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands
Portsmouth, England
Hurgata, Egypt
Naples and Rome, Italy
Azore Islands
Sigonella, Sicilly
Souda Bay, Crete
Athens, Greece
Antalia, Turkey
Haifa, Israel
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Dubai, UAE
Pensacola, Fla

I saw the coastlines of a lot of places: Bermuda, Rota, Spain, Gibralter, Morroco, Diego Garcia, Bahrain, Normandy, Vestafjord, Norway, and the Suez Canal from the inside 6 times.

I guess I covered a bit of the Earth in 10 years. [:)]

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger
What do you think about officers?

I had the misfortune of serving at Henderson Hall (headquarters of the Marine Corp) and the Pentagon as an enlisted MP. Being an MP, I spent a lot of time outside where it is of course mandatory to wear covers (hats), which necessitated saluting any officers I saw.

Being the HQ and the Pentagon, the place was crawling with officers 24/7. I can't tell you how many salutes I must have had to make in the 3 years I was stationed there. It became a habitual habit to find ways to turn my back to the officers so I wouldn't need to salute them. Kind of the way most military people hide just inside a door before reveille or taps is played to avoid saluting the flag, only I was doing it all friggin day.

With so many officers about I became really desensitized to them, if you didn't have at least 3 stars on your shoulder, I simply was no longer impressed. With that kind of exposure, you see a lot of bad officers, guys you wouldn't follow into the mess hall, let alone into combat.

But all in all I'd say they were no different than any other population of people on earth with the same mix of good and bad among them. Though I never did meet an officer who inspired me personally as a leader of men, those men are very rare, and would probably avoid the HQ and Pentagon like the plague. Also you'd usually find those kinds of men among the enlisted men, as they generally don't seek out rank over others unless it is thrust upon them by circumstance.

Most peace time officers are men of personal ambition and not the kind of people you'd want to look up to.

Jim

[JWE]

Well, I wouldn’t go quite that far, Jim, but in the main, you are probably right. Officers, like other men and women, run the spectrum, and they join and wish to advance for many reasons. There’s a couple different categories; professional, school trained people who wish to follow the profession of arms, and pimple faced college kids who don’t want to be cannon fodder (that would be me).

Then there’s two different kinds; a good peacetime officer, and the warrior. And you never know who the warrior is gonna be till they suck up and go. The joke about the really good ones is they should be kept behind glass with a sign ‘break only in time of conflict’. A cliché, I know, but clichés have some truth.

Didn’t really care much about the staff weenies, they were so easy to shine, but the ones I really hated were the newly Majors, especially the non-school Majors. Soon as some puke gets to field grade, he thinks Lieutenants should stand by his latrine to wipe his butt.

That’s about 99% of the good peacetime officers. The other 1% … now I’m no hero, but there are some men I would follow, even at the risk of my young, pink butt. There is a certain quality to being an officer of a certain kind. If you have ever had one, you know exactly what I mean. I was lucky, I’ve had a couple, and they made major impacts on my life.

Those individuals, so very far and few between, define what officers are supposed to be. For the remainder, it's just like corporate managers. Most suck, the rest are worse. But if the fewmets ever hit the windmill, you better hope to God you got some real officers on your side. Yeah, ok, soldiers and dogs keep off the grass.

[afspret]

Most were okay. I normally worked with 1st and 2nd Lts who were college/university ROTC grads and still learning the ropes. They relied on us NCOs to see them through, however, there were a couple who thought the stuff didn't stink and they knew it all.

The only "Ring Knocker" I ever worked with washed out of flight school, so her attitude was bad to begin with, and as a result, she was a real witch [;)]. The last I heard she got a very bad performance eval and lost plush follow on assignment.

Most of my Commanders were good, though I had one who was a retread (prior enlisted) that I didn't care for too much.

[Wirraway_Ace]

A major issue with officers (both commissioned and non-commissioned) in the US Military is the services unwillingness to recognize that some are superb staff officers but poor troop leaders and vice-versa. The US Military’s up-or-out policy essentially requires both NCOs and Officers to pursue troop leadership positions throughout their careers even if they are not good at it. The ability to stay (by being promoted) in the service is closely linked to success in troop leadership positions. I have worked with plenty of officers and NCOs that were superb staff officers (and very valuable because of that skill to plan and coordinate) who could not lead a 19 year-old soldier to save either of their lives. I have also worked with plenty of officers who were very skilled at leading soldiers who could not plan any other operation than “hey-diddle-diddle, let’s-go-up-the-middle”. The number who could do both well is a very small number. The US Military is constantly looking for that tiny % who can do both. The German Army of WWII allowed promotion in either a staff officer or commander track. This structure has value by both retaining and rewarding skilled staff officers and NCOs and not putting soldiers in the hands of these men (and women these days).

[whippleofd]

http://goatlocker.org/resources/nav/ranks.ppt

Nuff said.

[rroberson]

THere are always one or two good ones...but for the most part they are in the way.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: JWEThe joke about the really good ones is they should be kept behind glass with a sign ‘break only in time of conflict’. A cliché, I know, but clichés have some truth.

I disagree completely, bad officers are a danger to their men and should be weeded out with extreme prejudice whenever they are found.

As an example, I'll give a little inside info into the recent Oakland Police department tragedy (I'm retired OPD) which saw 4 offices killed and a 5th wounded. Police departments are Para military organizations and the same standards of leadership apply to them in 99% of cases.

What happened was a car stop that went bad. The first two officers were both shot in the head by the suspect, who leaned out of his car window and fired backwards with his pistol. This fact alone should have given any commander pause that they had an extremely accurate marksman on their hands and should proceed with caution.

Instead the career minded building rat (our term for "staff" officers interested only in their personal advancement) in charge of the SWAT team ordered a rush into the building where the suspect was holed up without waiting for proper equipment to arrive. Up until this point I'm sure this building rat was a great asset to the department as a paper pusher, but the fact he was placed in a position of command (deputy chief) was about to cost lives.

Immediately another officer was shot in the head and the SWAT team pulled out of the building to evacuate the casualty. The idiot again ordered a rush and a fourth officer was shot in the head and the fifth grazed in the head before the others finally took out the suspect.

The building rat in charge didn't wait for a negotiator, flash bang grenades, smoke, tear gas, or the armored personnel carrier to arrive, he wanted the credit for the takedown and ordered 2 more men to their deaths all to help advance his career.

Later that night he cried on the evening news... crocodile tears of course.

Jim

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

THere are always one or two good ones...but for the most part they are in the way.

while quite possibly true, if you want to develop a Spruance, or Tanaka or Nimitz, you have to let thousands lead and often fail...sometimes at significant loss of life to men under their command. But if you are successful at developing enough really skilled operational leaders, your total losses of men will be a lot less during wartime.

[rogueusmc]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When you were in the Navy...what kind os places have you been to? Now I mean cities or islands, not the local brothel[:D]

I've been out over 11 years, so let's see if I can remember.....

Great Lakes, Ill - Basic Training
Memphis, TN - School
Va. Beach, Va
Benidorm, Spain
Palma de Mallorca, Spain
Izmir, Turkey
Singapore
Toulon, France
Monaco
St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands
Portsmouth, England
Hurgata, Egypt
Naples and Rome, Italy
Azore Islands
Sigonella, Sicilly
Souda Bay, Crete
Athens, Greece
Antalia, Turkey
Haifa, Israel
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Dubai, UAE
Pensacola, Fla

I saw the coastlines of a lot of places: Bermuda, Rota, Spain, Gibralter, Morroco, Diego Garcia, Bahrain, Normandy, Vestafjord, Norway, and the Suez Canal from the inside 6 times.

I guess I covered a bit of the Earth in 10 years. [:)]

I need to dig out my seabag for my been-theres...when I was in, you wrote on your seabag everywhere you went.

[LST Express]

Only spent 3 years in the Army and no officers really gave me any heartburn. But I'm much happier sitting on the couch reading military history and playing wargames than actually being a part of that big ol military machine.[:)]