AT-Guns in buildings

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topper6
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AT-Guns in buildings

Post by topper6 »

I have so far only seen AT-guns beeing able to be placed inside buildings on one (1) map and that is Vaux-Les-Rosieres and that is in the building just west of the bridge.

I really liked when you could place AT-guns inside buildings like in earlier CC-games. Aren't AT-guns supposed to be able to be placed in buildings in Wacht am Rhein (WAR)?.

EDIT:
I now play as Americans and i see that the 57mm AT-gun is much more easily placed inside buildings, but as for the germans, i still think the 75mm AT-Gun should (could) be able to fit into more buildings.
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Andrew Williams
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Andrew Williams »

If the gun fits it can go in a building.

It was a damned lot of work to dismantle a gun and rebuild it in a house.

You're then stuck there and very vulnerable to HE attack.

The roof and walls add an extra element of danger through flying masonry and collapse.
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kojusoki1
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by kojusoki1 »

German AT guns (medium, and i think it is OK) and IG CANNOT be deployed inside building or even a place where building was.
Allied guns (57mm) can be deployed there

Lazy Germans;)
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Andrew Williams
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Andrew Williams »

There is no switch to differentiate between a German or Allied gun.
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kojusoki1
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by kojusoki1 »

I have no time now to check, but maybe it is a matter of size of a vehicle (gun) in the vehicles.txt?
But try to put a german gun inside. Of course, in the regular version germans do not have Light AT guns. But IG should fit. If you mod the forcepool and have LAT Guns on German side, I think they will be able to be deployed inside the building.

So: becouse in the regular WAR there are no LAT Guns on german side, the question is why IG cannot be deployed.

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Andrew Williams
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Andrew Williams »

57mmAT
50mm AT
7.5cm IG

Are all the same size

The 75mm At
3"
90mm
88's are all larger
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Senior Drill
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Senior Drill »

When looking at any vehicle or gun, as well as building interiors, bear in mind that what we see as a pretty picture is not what the game "sees" and uses. The game works in terms of element tiles - a 10 pixel by 10 pixel block that represents a 2 meter by 2 meter square.

The size of any vehicle or gun is set in the Vehicle Size column of the Vehicles.txt file. While this discussion is about AT Guns, the term "vehicle" will be used to represent all vehicles and guns that are objects in the Vehicles.txt file. The chart shows all AT guns that are in the AlsTeams,txt and AxsTeams.txt files (as well as a couple that have data available in the Vehicles.txt file, but are not in the AxsTeams). Note that the column next to it, Object Size (or sometimes refered to as Element Radius) is not well understood, even by the lead programmer who supplied the column description, but probably is a function of the vehicles height above the element terrain that the center point or "hot spot" occupies. The three existing AT guns highlighted in yellow are the easiest to emplace in a building interior. The fourth would be if it was used.





As shown in the notes, a vehicle's size is determined by the foumula [{Square Root (Width in whole meters X Length in whole meters X Height in whole meters)} X 2]. This resulting figure is how many element tiles squared the vehicle is going to be to the game engine. Every vehicle is always seen by the game engine as a square block, regardless of what the image that we see is. I'll repeat that: To the game, tanks, armored cars and guns are always square; as wide as they are long.

As I can only embed one picture per post (how drole), I'll continue in the next post.



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Senior Drill
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Senior Drill »

Part II

The image below is an enlargement of a US M1 57mm AT Gun. At its center is the pivot point or "hot spot" of the gun; the point that the animations of the gun will rotate on. Over the gun image are three red squares that show Vehicle Sizes in terms of element tiles squared. The inner most is 1 element tile (10 x 10 pixels). The middle square is 2 element tiles square (20 X 20 pixels) The outermost red square is what the game engine "sees"; a 3 element tile square (30 X 30 pixels).



If that 3 element square can fit inside of the coding of a building interior, the gun can be placed in it. Ignore the barrel and trail parts of the image because the game does not see them and doesn't care about them. If there is ANY blocking element, then the gun can not be placed in the building.

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ATGunTileSize.gif
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kojusoki1
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by kojusoki1 »

ill ask another way - any of you managed to put german IG into building?
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Senior Drill
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by Senior Drill »

Well, put that way, yes and no. Yes with an edit, no using stock data. [8|]

The 7.5cm leIG18 has the Class numbers in the AxsTeam.txt file of 80, 81 and 82 (Heer, FJ, SS). The Type (Column F) is given as 14 which is for a Medium Infantry Gun. As that, it appears that there is hard coding to not allow a Type 14 to be emplace inside buildings (or on floor elements, whichever).

However, the 75mm leIG18 has a very small footprint for a gun of its calibre; smaller in fact than the US M3 37mm AT Gun. It should be typed as Type 13 - a Light Infantry Gun, which it certainly is. A Type 13 can be placed in buildings.

To make the change for yourself, open the AxsTeam.txt file in a spreadsheet application and change the Type (Column F) from "14" to "13" for all three class numbers (80, 81 and 82). Save as a tab delimited text file.

@ Andrew: This should be a change done in the data for the next patch, or the one coming soon if it is not too late. The wide wheel base of the gun carriage used in the Guns.Azp is also wrong. The wheel base is under 2 meters. The 75mm le 18 is quite the compact little gun.
C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.
thesock
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by thesock »

In battles like operation Goodwood (Normand 44)the German AT guns were set up well camouflaged. They then engaged the enemy until the situation got too hot, they then withdrew to their next prepared position. This isn't possible if the gun has been jammed into a house. In AT survivability camouflage is the key. During Goodwood where the Allies lost 800 tanks the main observation by the tank commanders was at no time could they pin point the enemy AT guns. In a head to head dual the German AT gun should and did win against Allied armour on most all occasions. On GJS I altered the AT settings to make them harder to hit.
STIENER
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RE: AT-Guns in buildings

Post by STIENER »

i agree with sock......historically he's right but both sides did put guns in buildings and ruins etc.rubble.....
the problem is as we have said before that the guns when spotted get taken out asap by mortors and in alot of cases lose the gun VS tank duel. a/t gun rate of fire should be faster than a tank...i dont think it is.
 
its been said before..why dont the matrix lads take the GJS data for mortors and a/t guns and put it in WAR???????????? its not perfect BUT ITS A DAMN SITE BETTER THAN WHATS THERE NOW. god this is frustrating!
 
now let the argueing begin again...not sure why i even waste my time putting posts in here.......i can hardly wait till the new CC5 comes out with the same messed up data that WAR has.....your going to lose customers if you guys keep this up.........
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