A reconnaissance and patrol question for the more experienced.

[AW1Steve]

If I am trying to create a “barrier” of patrol aircraft (PBY’s) , how many squadrons would it take to ensure 100% certainty of coverage (obviously disregarding weather).? And how much over-lap is required between adjacent patrols (adjacent islands) to ensure 100% detection? Does the detection ability of an aircraft decrease the further out and closer to it’s maximum range? Would say , three PBY squadrons on the same base at 100% patrol (all aircraft flyable , say 36 in all) provide perfect coverage in perfect weather?


And I earlier (a couple of months ago or more) heard some discussion about using small AK’s., LCI’s or other ships as “picket ships”. Was this finally found to be gamey? What I’m looking for is to make a really good “fence” , not to hold back the KB , but to “bell the cat” , when it crosses into “my waters”. Any ideas or suggestions?

[khyberbill]

I cant tell you how many you need, but KB has snuck up on me more than once when I had 2 squadrons of PBY's on naval search, so the answer is at least 2 squads, plus one more plane. Both times this occurred at Midway.

[AW1Steve]

That's what's been happening to me. So I guess that I'll start my experiment with 3 squadrons. I've been operating at 5000'. Too high? Too low? I know from my own experince that 1,000' is perfect for periscopes and awash subs, but too low for battlegroups. (In real world). [:)]

[Pistachio]

I've wondered about this before, too.  I'm not an expert but a couple of things worth mentioning:  you can get away with a lot against the computer that you can't use against a PBEM opponent.  But do you really need 2-3 patrol groups on Nanomea Atoll, even against a human opponent?  It would depend on how the game was going.

My guess is you don't need 3 against the AI, either.  I use 1 group per island, since that's about all the squadrons you have and about all you can support at the start of the war anyway, and double up on bases that really matter (e.g., Midway).

[EDIT: If I have 2 groups I set one on search and one on ASW, with the search group flying at 6-8000 and the ASW group at 1-2000. But I don't know if that's right.]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

If I am trying to create a “barrier” of patrol aircraft (PBY’s) , how many squadrons would it take to ensure 100% certainty of coverage (obviously disregarding weather).?

No such thing. Weather plays a big part of it. Obviously the more you have the better your chances are (assuming the weather isnt bad at YOUR base grounding all your search planes).

What a lot of "experienced" players do is put a picket of low value AKs out there and let the KB find them (1 every 10 hexes or so is usually good enough). Even if they arent attacked sometimes you will get reports like AK No Love sights Val or Jake. That tells you SOMETHING is afoot.

[bradfordkay]

How about a picket line of submarines? It's not quite as effective as using AKs, but it is a valid method of searching for the enemy. If you use a widely scattered line of AKs, your enemy can avoid them by using standard WITP ECM measures: limiting the number of CVs in a TF, flying only the scout planes from the escorts, etc.

My feeling on the number of patrol squadrons is that each of your forward bases needs at least one squadron. The overlapping coverage is pretty important, I think. After that I will put second and third squadrons on crucial bases - the ones closest to my opponent's probable axis of advance or the ones I can least afford to have caught napping. I'd love to have the squadrons to have every bases two deep, but they aren't there - at least not in CHS 2.08.


EDIT: Oh, and my 4E bombers in SoPac, CenPac, and NoPac areas are usually on 50% naval search (as mandated by house rules - must have 50% naval search if set to naval attack), and those B24s have quite the range on naval search.


Does this all work? I guess... I realize that nothing is guaranteed in war or WITP.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

How about a picket line of submarines? It's not quite as effective as using AKs, but it is a valid method of searching for the enemy. If you use a widely scattered line of AKs, your enemy can avoid them by using standard WITP ECM measures: limiting the number of CVs in a TF, flying only the scout planes from the escorts, etc.

My feeling on the number of patrol squadrons is that each of your forward bases needs at least one squadron. The overlapping coverage is pretty important, I think. After that I will put second and third squadrons on crucial bases - the ones closest to my opponent's probable axis of advance or the ones I can least afford to have caught napping. I'd love to have the squadrons to have every bases two deep, but they aren't there - at least not in CHS 2.08.


EDIT: Oh, and my 4E bombers in SoPac, CenPac, and NoPac areas are usually on 50% naval search (as mandated by house rules - must have 50% naval search if set to naval attack), and those B24s have quite the range on naval search.

The subs are good, and I tend to use them forward, but the problem with a sub is the KB has to actually run over it. I wondered about using expendable ships. Late in the war I can use LCI(g) which don't work anyhow. If you suddely lose the small AK or whatever to Vals and Kates, you know that you've got a bite. I've been using bombers on 100% search until something comes into range.





Thanks guys.....you've given me some stuff to think on.

[Yamato hugger]

Well 2 problems with LCIs. #1, by the time you get them there SHOULDNT be a KB to worry about. If you dont have enough carriers by then to squish it, then a picket line is the least of your worries. #2 an LCI is like a barge or a PT boat. They have to be at 100' to attack it, and it isnt likely the KB will be sailing around with its planes "on the deck".

[FOW]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well 2 problems with LCIs. #1, by the time you get them there SHOULDNT be a KB to worry about. If you dont have enough carriers by then to squish it, then a picket line is the least of your worries. #2 an LCI is like a barge or a PT boat. They have to be at 100' to attack it, and it isnt likely the KB will be sailing around with its planes "on the deck".

It's not so much the attack as the spotting of the picket ship
I'd be more interested in the " AK 'Dangling Bait' spotted by Kate at xx,yy"

I try to get 2 patrol squadrons per base, one set to extended range, one to normal range, both 100% naval search. with overlapping extended range coverage at least.
difficult to get complete interlocking coverage due to the spread of the islands/atolls but a chain from Midway to Canton Island is possible if given the chance and no interferance.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

That's what's been happening to me. So I guess that I'll start my experiment with 3 squadrons. I've been operating at 5000'. Too high? Too low? I know from my own experince that 1,000' is perfect for periscopes and awash subs, but too low for battlegroups. (In real world). [:)]

i've read complaints of players complaining about TFs sneaking up on them when they've had THREE squadrons on naval search... i haven't heard of any complaining that something snuck by FOUR squadrons... however, i suspect:
1)the size of the squadron has something to do with it (i.e. -4 plane Dutch units vs. 16 plane squadrons);
2) weather plays a big factor.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

That's what's been happening to me. So I guess that I'll start my experiment with 3 squadrons. I've been operating at 5000'. Too high? Too low? I know from my own experince that 1,000' is perfect for periscopes and awash subs, but too low for battlegroups. (In real world). [:)]

i've read complaints of players complaining about TFs sneaking up on them when they've had THREE squadrons on naval search... i haven't heard of any complaining that something snuck by FOUR squadrons... however, i suspect:
1)the size of the squadron has something to do with it (i.e. -4 plane Dutch units vs. 16 plane squadrons);
2) weather plays a big factor.

I have had 4+ squadrons(12 plane PBY , USN) , 60+ experince , and been hit repeatedly by Sprior. I don't know how he does it, but he manages to do it all the time. I really need to pay more attention to weather. [8|]

[Canoerebel]

I don't think there's any way to keep the KB from slipping up announced.   John has done it in my game in an area with perhaps five or six Mariner and (what's the name of the 15-range "big" patrol airplane?  It just slipped my mind).

I don't see anything gamey about using small craft or some transports as picket ships.  Early in my game with John I established a line between Pearl Harbor and the Aleutians and kept it in place for many months.  It's historic too - similar to what the Japanese did with those converted fishing trawlers that sighted Hornet on the Doolittle Raid.  It's just that we don't have fishing trawlers to work with, so less valuable ships have to serve.

It would be gamey and unfair, though, to employ "picket" ships in such a fashion to draw massed strikes by the enemy's carrier TF, thus bleeding mission sorties.  I've encountered that problem before on a key mission and it was highly frustrating - I had to keep my dive bombers and torpedo bombers on "naval strike" in case the enemy showed up, but my carriers kept launching 250 aircraft raids against an AK or two. So once my pickets sight the enemy I try to get them out of harm's way so that they don't end up bleeding mission sorties.

[crsutton]

In stock, due to the reasons Canonrebel just mentioned, I ask my opponents not to use picket ships-unless they are warships. There is a historical basis for picket ships but in game it just makes for too many problems.
 
I do my best to cover all approaches with as much air patroling as possible. I hate getting hit by a sneak attack. That said, the game would not be any fun if you could fully protect yourself against surprise. What make WITP great is the unpredictible element. Sometimes things don't work as they should. This is the way it happens in warfare.

[Bogo Mil]

Well, the Allies have lots of small subchasers etc - these are warships and can be used even under this houserule. Some of these subchasers are so maneuverable, that they even have a fair chance to survive an attack [:'(]. The only problem is to keep them fueled - that's a lot of extra micromanagement.

You can also use "useful pickets". For instance, you have to supply Midway - why not send a small AK once or twice a week from Anchorage or Dutch Harbor? Midway won't starve, and this may catch the KB raid.

[ny59giants]

John has done it in my game in an area with perhaps five or six Mariner and (what's the name of the 15-range "big" patrol airplane? It just slipped my mind).

These might be the Coronado. They are great for moving troops due to their huge load capacity.

[Pistachio]

Yep, PB2Y.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I don't think there's any way to keep the KB from slipping up announced.   John has done it in my game in an area with perhaps five or six Mariner and (what's the name of the 15-range "big" patrol airplane?  It just slipped my mind).

That's a correct statment. KB can start out 16 hexes out. Assuming there is anything in the target hex that can reach out that far, that's over 800 hexes to check. Say 4 squadrons of 12 planes each with all planes searching. That's over 16 hexes per plane to search. What are the odds of that happening?

KB comes in at full speed and hits the target from 4 hexes away smashing the place.

Another option is coming in from 10 hexes out, hitting at 4 hexes and running back out to 10 hexes. Rarely will the Allies even see the TF.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: FOW
It's not so much the attack as the spotting of the picket ship
I'd be more interested in the " AK 'Dangling Bait' spotted by Kate at xx,yy"

No self-respecting KB jockey is going to put Vals or Kates on scouting missions, even just partial naval search. It's a dead giveaway, and it's much easier to get a couple cruisers and CS ships in the TF with lots of Jakes.

[Charbroiled]

It seems to me that someone did a test of the search routine and found out that if you shorten the range of your search planes that you increase the spotting ability considerably.

[Mynok]

Check the must read threads. I believe it is in there. (Vague recollection so don't sue me if I'm wrong.)