Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

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Hairog
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Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Hairog »

Here is a little post by a Doc (one of the creators of BGE) that caught my attention. After a long stalemated period of intense combat, the Allied Commander either made a mistake or the Axis had a brilliant strategic nirvana as there was a massive breakout that was fun for all.

"Written by DOC Monday, 02 February 2009 00:00

What a Friday night it was in game. I spotted a post in the forums that I thought would shed some light on another one of the reasons we think the game is so great. In light of last nights events it seemed a good place to draw out these kinds of things for you and say congrats Axis! for a fun night.

From the forums, player Kilemal said:

The game's design relies on mistakes to create variability.

Bingo!

Just like real war, there are times of total stagnation, complete attrition slugfests down to the last man, other times of massive breakouts where the line is either in dire risk of collapse or actually does collapse. Times of fast movement where little battle is actually contested, and massive areas are occupied (captured) and other times where the breakout is chopped off like a bulging hernia.

After 2 straight months of withering heart felt conflict by all players of the game, we have seen everything. From Blitzkrieg to Stalingrad, it has all shown it's hand in this historic campaign number 50.

Never allow yourself the luxury of the self fulfilling prophecy that any mistake is a sign of the game being broken. Unlike most "conflict" games (I don't call them war games because I haven't seen any other game actually model the effects, consequences and management of WAR like this one, this is almost a war creator game not a war playing game) ... unlike those other games in this one you have the greatest collection of possible or potential WAR related elements and aspects you'll find in a single game. A mistake determining success or failure in a wargame that hopes to simulate actual war to any degree is not a sign that it is broken, it is a sign that it is working better than any war game where mistakes mean nothing, or don't exist in the first place.

MISTAKES are one of the biggest and most deciding factors in real war you could study. They decided more individual battles and campaigns than almost anything else. That mistakes at a command level can occur in this game is one of the reasons it is the only MMPOPvP WAR game out there. There are other games that are PvP or "war related" but none are as close to being as much WAR as this one is.

I salute all players who choose to take part in this grand wargame experience (if not experiment and it is largely an experimental project) ... we have happy players, bitter players, smart players and not so smart players. Skilled ones and n00bs, hoping to be skilled one day. We have strategic players and tactical players, ground grunts with the hard won experience to win against almost any odds, and cannon fodder who still have a long way to go. Aces and dweebs alike take to the skies. Players who run supply and resupply their comrades in the field. Others who fix or take down bridges to help shape the coming or ongoing attack or defense.
We have stalemates and breakouts. Little burps and massive coronaries. Brilliant leadership and huge mistakes. Face to muzzle close combat and mile away finger of god despatching of the enemy.

We have players who suffer a crisis of confidence and a week later, heck just a day later, they are racing through the lines and redrawing the map of conflict like they are the kings of the world.

We have towns that are too easy to take, and cities that seem impossible to take, and then along comes a town that was too easy to take yesterday and today it's an 8 hour meatgrinder. The city that last month was "impossible to take" falls captured and suddenly perceptions are shattered like glass.

Still some hold strong against all visible evidence.

In short, we have it all. You have it all. Good, bad, happy, sad, fast, slow, easy, hard, right, wrong, brilliant and insane ... the game has everything."

From what I can gather they are about to offer the game in China. This should bring in some much needed revenue and hopefully some more programers to polish this gem.
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Jeffrey H.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Jeffrey H. »

WWIIOL has some great elements for sure but also some fatal flaws. The imbalance of vehicles to infantry is one of them.
 
The elfie-welfie MMO games will always attract a larger crowd unfortunately.
 
 
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Zakhal
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Zakhal »

I still have account in ww2ol. Played it on and off since 2001.
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Scott_WAR
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Scott_WAR »

I have considered giving WW2O another go. I havent tried it in a year or so.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by GenChaos33 »

Yes, the only true wargame that gives me a real feeling of true combat(or what I believe to be true combat). I have been a WWIIOL-BE player for around 4 years now. Still play about 3-4 times a week(a late nite player). I play a lot of countryside ATG(alot of my action is 1K outside of town). The tank vs ATG battles still get my heart pumping. Something about MMO PvP, large map with realistic changing of elevations, and hitting a tank when they don't expect it just make the experience great for me. I have never hunted in real life but thats the feeling I get. I admit I might play the game a little different than most. There is a lot of setup/downtime but it works for me and my computer situation. FYI - I have a POS computer/internet setup.
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Joram
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Joram »

What are you a recruiter?  Are you going to post this on every forum? [;)]
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by GJK »

I'm confused about which forum I'm reading now. That or it's deja-vu all over again.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by JudgeDredd »

I hated WWIIO. Tried it once, logged on....was surprised at how little action there was. I then decided to make my way (wherever). Tried to hitch a lift...nope. No-one was interested. Eventually got to the town I was going to and BAM!!! Sniper.
 
Tried again, immediately, different approach to the town and same thing. Seems the town had a few snipers.
 
The game appeared to have no team work...no sense of sides. It was an "individual" online shooter surrounded by other individuals or small "pockets" of comrades.
 
I've never wanted to pick it up since!
 
That was a loooooooooooooong time ago, but still...
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Scott_WAR »

The game is nothing BUT teamwork. I still find it funny when someone gets a game, takes no time to learn how it works, and think its the game that is the problem.

You MUST join a squad in WW2O. Just like in real life military UNITS will win over the guy running around all by himself.

You must also learn how the communications channels work, that way you have a clue whats going on. HQ will let you know where they need help, and will help you get there if they can.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by GenChaos33 »

Yes. Teamwork and squads are needed for both town defense and town attack(the capture the flag stuff). A lot of the FB(firebase) stuff can be a little more solo work. As far as learning how to play WWIIOL-BE, available manuals were really bad and always out of date which made it hard to play the game correctly. It might be a little better now with the in-game manuals(maybe?).
 
I was in a squad and in the High Command, but drop out to both. Due to my poor computer/internet, its hard for me to enjoy runnin with squads/in-town battles(bad lag). Luckily, I really like my ATG stuff and always try to communicate to the High Command officers/chat channels if the enemy seems to be makes a heavy push/attack to the nearby town I am at. So I do a kind of ATG/Recon thing.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Zakhal »

There has always been lots of teamwork in the game. You can lead and follow. Theres even ingame tools for it now. Mostly though nowadays I just fight the inf battles or protect tanks during close fights. With depots for both attacker and defender, plus mobile spawns theres plenty of ways to spawn near enemy.No need to hitch rides from FBs anymore.
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vonRocko
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by vonRocko »

I just downloaded this game this evening, and I am very confused by it all. How can people chat so fast while fighting also? I hope I will comprehend it all sometime. It has some nice elements.[8|]
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Grell »

I played this game and I liked it.

Regards,

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by JudgeDredd »

Well Scott...you can find it funny all you want. I'm telling you how it played when I downloaded it to try...and I didn't have to join a squad...therefore it wasn't how I perceived the game, but actually how it worked.

It' fair to say, as I pointed out in my post, that that was quite some time ago...a lot may have changed. I found the experience empty and futile....back then

So it's got bugger all to do with me getting the game, taking no time to learn how it works and thinking it's the game that had the problem...but if it gives you a laugh to think that, then feel free.
ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

The game is nothing BUT teamwork. I still find it funny when someone gets a game, takes no time to learn how it works, and think its the game that is the problem.

You MUST join a squad in WW2O. Just like in real life military UNITS will win over the guy running around all by himself.

You must also learn how the communications channels work, that way you have a clue whats going on. HQ will let you know where they need help, and will help you get there if they can.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by GenChaos33 »

I must also admit that when I hear a new player state that 'there's no action in this game' or 'all I do is just die and never kill/see anyone' is that its because the new player has a misunderstanding of how the game works. IMO, a lot of new players believe town attacks are of the frontal attack style. They believe they can just run up the bell tower of the church in the town under attack and look in the direction of the attack and see a hord of enemy infantry and tanks moving towards the town. Thats not how WWIIOL-BE normally works. It could happen but would need a lot of squads and teamwork. A lot of the attacks start as the infiltration style. Cover is a big part of the game(FYI - audio direction is the most important). You never see the enemy infantry til they are right up on you or worse they kill you first. Once these 'enemy molers' get a foothold in the town then the attack may start to escalate into a bigger battle.
 
When ever I meet up with a noob ingame, I try to ask a few questions to them. 1) Are you having fun? 2) Do you have any questions about game? 3) Do you understand how AO's(when High Command designates a town to be attacked/defended) work? 4) Do you understand how EWS(a town's early warning system) works? 5) Do you understand how FB(firebases near towns) work? 6) Do you understand how UMS(trucks that create a mobile spawn point) work? 7) Do you understand how the communication system works? IMO, all of the last five questions must be understood to find good action and have fun. 
 
Another issue to keep in mind is what time of day are you logging into the game? This is an online community game. There are high pop and low pop times. If its low pop, big action can be a little harder to find.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Zakhal »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I hated WWIIO. Tried it once, logged on....was surprised at how little action there was. I then decided to make my way (wherever). Tried to hitch a lift...nope. No-one was interested. Eventually got to the town I was going to and BAM!!! Sniper.
Check this video how to stay alive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs8HNE3488
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Zakhal »

ORIGINAL: GeneralChaos

I must also admit that when I hear a new player state that 'there's no action in this game' or 'all I do is just die and never kill/see anyone' is that its because the new player has a misunderstanding of how the game works. IMO, a lot of new players believe town attacks are of the frontal attack style. They believe they can just run up the bell tower of the church in the town under attack and look in the direction of the attack and see a hord of enemy infantry and tanks moving towards the town. Thats not how WWIIOL-BE normally works. It could happen but would need a lot of squads and teamwork. A lot of the attacks start as the infiltration style. Cover is a big part of the game(FYI - audio direction is the most important). You never see the enemy infantry til they are right up on you or worse they kill you first.

Once these 'enemy molers' get a foothold in the town then the attack may start to escalate into a bigger battle.

I usually wait for that latter part where the attack escalates before spawning into the map. Before that I just browse the map and listen the channels in search of such battles and occasionally spawn in to check close what the situation is. Often it takes only few minutes to find som good inf action.
"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by GenChaos33 »

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Scott_WAR »

Sorry Judge, I could have put that a little better. The game is not like a typical FPS game where a single person can do well if they know how to play it. You may get lucky and get a kill or two in ww20 while alone, but its not going to happen often. More likely you are going to be spotted by an enemy who is going to alert other enemies that you are close, and those enemies will kill you before you see or hear anything.
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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Post by Hertston »

I really hope this has improved since I played it (on release, and a brief spell a couple of years later - when it hadn't).  The aircraft and tanks were OK-ish, but the infantry combat was poorly designed tedium incarnate.  I suppose it must have have done, or the game wouldn't still be around.
 
What is the current player population, BTW?  What sort of peak numbers are there?
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