Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Long Lance
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Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Long Lance »

While I highly appreciate this game, some minor annoyances (supply-problem for factory build up, path-finding for LCUs and convoys and many more) stop me form starting a new game and waiting for AE instead (or playingother games to be true[;)]).

While all annoyances others are of the you-can-live-with-that-type or at least of the learn-to-live-with-that-type , what really pi@@es me off is the Air-Combat-Model. Early in the war, the Zero is the F-86 Sabre, ridicously superior to anything or at least any Fighter it enconters, but with the Hellcat and the Corsair the X-Wing and Tie-Fighter arrive.

The F4F was inferior to the A6M (plz no new F4FvsA6M thread), but tactics could widely compensate this.
If the Japanese Player preserves his precious experienced pilots, the still should have a chance against F6F/F4U.

Am I wrong? What do you think?

Are any mods around that address this?

Thanks for your replies.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by m10bob »

With vanilla, the aircraft are limited to just a very few performance characteristics, which made some of the models weaker/stronger than they might have been IRL.(One of my favourite misrepresentations is the weak Hayabusa which only has two machine guns, and cannnot be given its' real intended/proven strengths of being a long range hard to hit gun platform).
All mods based on vanilla had to use the same game engine, and this is one of the problems The Elf and others on the AE team have tried to tackle.
Be patient, like the rest of us.[8D]
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Long Lance
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Long Lance »

Hmmmm, be patient. Well, that's also a learn-to-live-with-that-annoyance[;)]

From what I understand, maxspeed is the by far most important factor in combat resolution in WitP. So I hoped that anybody had tweaked these values. Sacrificing historical accurate speed for more realistic combat results.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by ChickenOfTheSea »

Several of the mods have done exactly that. Nikmod, Big B mod, CHS Nikmod, CHS experimental, and RHS will all give you more realistic combat results using the current engine. AE will be able to address this more thoroughly.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen
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Long Lance
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Long Lance »

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

Several of the mods have done exactly that. Nikmod, Big B mod, CHS Nikmod, CHS experimental, and RHS will all give you more realistic combat results using the current engine. AE will be able to address this more thoroughly.

Could you please tell me what's the diference between them and which of them is best suited for single player?
lolz
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by lolz »

im playing for some time already,vanilla only,can you post links for the mods pls?
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: Long Lance

If the Japanese Player preserves his precious experienced pilots, the still should have a chance against F6F/F4U.

No, he wont. WitP has a "reverse" Zero bonus built into the game (and I have to shake my head everytime I see a post on the board whining about the Zero bonus). Beginning in 1944 the allies get a decided advantage. I dont know what specifically it is, but I suspect allied fighters get a "free pass" before the rest of combat is initiated. Japanese air losses go up dramatically from Jan 1 1944 until the end of the game. Zero bonus is +5 to their manueverability and it goes down 1 every month. I would gladly trade my Zero bonus to eliminate this allied advantage.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by stuman »

This thread seems to have all sorts of Mod info :

tm.asp?m=1274014
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Long Lance
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Long Lance »

ORIGINAL: stuman

This thread seems to have all sorts of Mod info :

tm.asp?m=1274014

And manymany more. That's why I asked a specific question and not asked to tell me everything about WitP[;)]
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Long Lance
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Long Lance »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Long Lance

If the Japanese Player preserves his precious experienced pilots, the still should have a chance against F6F/F4U.

No, he wont. WitP has a "reverse" Zero bonus built into the game ...

So the mods don't solve the Über-Fighter problem either because it is somehow hardcoded?
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Long Lance

While I highly appreciate this game, some minor annoyances (supply-problem for factory build up, path-finding for LCUs and convoys and many more) stop me form starting a new game and waiting for AE instead (or playingother games to be true[;)]).

While all annoyances others are of the you-can-live-with-that-type or at least of the learn-to-live-with-that-type , what really pi@@es me off is the Air-Combat-Model. Early in the war, the Zero is the F-86 Sabre, ridicously superior to anything or at least any Fighter it enconters, but with the Hellcat and the Corsair the X-Wing and Tie-Fighter arrive.

The F4F was inferior to the A6M (plz no new F4FvsA6M thread), but tactics could widely compensate this.
If the Japanese Player preserves his precious experienced pilots, the still should have a chance against F6F/F4U.

Am I wrong? What do you think?

Are any mods around that address this?

Thanks for your replies.

See this link.

If a fully trained pilot with no combat experience is a 60, each combat gains about 5, and a difference of 20 in value corresponds to an exchange ratio of about 2-1. (The score difference is essentially a logarithmic scale).
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by ChickenOfTheSea »

Here are some of the most useful links.

Spooky's

http://mathubert.free.fr/

Andrew Brown's

http://www.bur.st/~akbrown/witp.html

RHS

http://www.rhs.akdreemer.com/rhs_home.html

There are readme documents with the mods that will help describe the way the mods differ from stock.

If you are starting out playing solitaire against the AI you might start out with either Big B for the stock map or Nikmod 9.2b available Spooky's site. Both have more realistic air-to-air results than stock.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: Long Lance

So the mods don't solve the Über-Fighter problem either because it is somehow hardcoded?

That is correct. It is hardcoded in WitP so you can mod until the cows come home and not fix it.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: lolz

im playing for some time already,vanilla only,can you post links for the mods pls?

Love your art piece Sir.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by ny59giants »

Love your art piece Sir.

You are now a P-38 fanboy?? [8|]
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Big B »

Yes, there are mods that address this,
I know Nikmod and B-Mod do, I think RHS has had an impact too - but I'm not familiar with it.

FYI, if you DO save your KB pilots - they will do better against the Allies later in the war - but it's a total process you must go through.

There have been AARs that have seen the Japanese slaughter the Allies sooo bad early, while training their aircrews to perfection (average fighter unit across the board had experience in the 90s [8|]) - that the Allies got slaughtered in 1944....ran out of pilots and planes!!![X(]

As far as I know there is no hard coded bonus that the Allies get later in the war. What does happen is that the Allies get vastly higher rated aircraft (by game standards) while the Japanese get aircraft that aren't as highly rated (this is one place where mods help out).

Furthermore, what is hard coded in the game is that replacement pilots for the Allies continuously get better, while Japanese replacement pilots continuously get worse. Combine that with aircraft ratings, and in stock you get Uber Japanese at start - followed by Uber Allies at the end.

Try a mod - they do help out.
ORIGINAL: Long Lance

While I highly appreciate this game, some minor annoyances (supply-problem for factory build up, path-finding for LCUs and convoys and many more) stop me form starting a new game and waiting for AE instead (or playingother games to be true[;)]).

While all annoyances others are of the you-can-live-with-that-type or at least of the learn-to-live-with-that-type , what really pi@@es me off is the Air-Combat-Model. Early in the war, the Zero is the F-86 Sabre, ridicously superior to anything or at least any Fighter it enconters, but with the Hellcat and the Corsair the X-Wing and Tie-Fighter arrive.

The F4F was inferior to the A6M (plz no new F4FvsA6M thread), but tactics could widely compensate this.
If the Japanese Player preserves his precious experienced pilots, the still should have a chance against F6F/F4U.

Am I wrong? What do you think?

Are any mods around that address this?

Thanks for your replies.
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by bradfordkay »

Chez and I are playing the CHS experimental version and his George's are standing up very well to my P-47Ds, F6Fs and P38Js. The rest of his fighters are taking it on the chin from these guys... My F4Us haven't really come into play because he has no aircraft at bases within their range!
fair winds,
Brad
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Speedysteve »

But if they do come in range of F4U's think Tie Defenders.....[;)]
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by mdiehl »

and in stock you get Uber Japanese at start - followed by Uber Allies at the end.

I don't see how anyone can look at the Marianas, Okinawa, and Iwo campaigns and argue that Japanese aviation even in large numbers was going to run up a compelling kill ratio against allied aviation. American a.c. of 1944-1945 were simply much better than the opfor.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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RE: Air Combat mod with no Über-Fighters (early Zero, F6F, F4U)

Post by Speedysteve »

Uh oh....batten down the hatches everyone....INCOMING![:'(]
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